Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

The Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

12/10/2016

Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts

Cynnwys
Contents

.........

4....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

4....... Craffu ar Waith Comisiynydd y Gymraeg: Adroddiad Sicrwydd 2015-16 Scrutiny of the Welsh Language Commissioner: Assurance Report 2015-16

65..... Adolygiad Llywodraeth Cymru o Wasanaethau Treftadaeth: Tystiolaeth gan Amgueddfa Cymru

......... Welsh Government Review of Heritage Services: Evidence from National Museum Wales

93..... Papurau i'w Nodi
Papers to Note

94..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public for the Remainder of the Meeting

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included.

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Hannah Blythyn Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Dawn Bowden Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Suzy Davies Bywgraffiad|Biography	Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Neil Hamilton Bywgraffiad|Biography	UKIP Cymru UKIP Wales
Bethan Jenkins Bywgraffiad|Biography	Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)
Dai Lloyd Bywgraffiad|Biography	Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Jeremy Miles Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Lee Waters Bywgraffiad|Biography	Llafur Labour
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
David Anderson	Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol Amgueddfa Cymru Director General, National Museum Wales
Meri Huws	Comisiynydd y Gymraeg Welsh Language Commissioner
Gwenith Price	Cyfarwyddwr Cydymffurfiaeth a Gorfodi/Dirprwy Gomisiynydd, Swyddfa Comisiynydd y Gymraeg Director of Compliance and Enforcement/Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Welsh Language Commissioner
Steffan Jones	Uwch Swyddog Cydymffurfiaeth, Swyddfa Comisiynydd y Gymraeg Senior Compliance Officer, Office of the Welsh Language Commissioner
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Osian Bowyer	Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service
Steve George	Clerc Clerk
Manon Huws	Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol Legal Adviser

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:29. The meeting began at 09:29.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest
[1] Bethan Jenkins: Croeso i’r pwyllgor. Nid ydym wedi cael unrhyw ymddiheuriadau na dirprwyon heddiw. Os bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff. Ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel.	Bethan Jenkins: Welcome to this committee meeting. We haven’t received any apologies or substitutions today. If the fire alarm should sound, everyone should leave the room by the fire exits and follow instructions from the ushers and staff. A test alarm is not expected today. Everyone should turn their mobile phones to silent.
[2] The National Assembly for Wales operates bilingually. So, headphones are available to hear simultaneous translation and to adjust the audio for people who are hard of hearing. Simultaneous translation is available on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 0.
[3] Nid oes angen cyffwrdd â’r botymau ar y microffonau oherwydd gallai hynny amharu ar y system. Ond, rwy’n siŵr eich bod chi’n gwybod hynny’n barod. A oes unrhyw ddatganiadau o fuddiannau gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad heddiw? Na. Grêt.	You don’t need to touch the microphones because that could affect the system. I'm sure you’re already aware of that. Are there any declarations of interests by Members today? No. Excellent.
09:30
Craffu ar Waith Comisiynydd y Gymraeg: Adroddiad Sicrwydd 2015-16 Scrutiny of the Welsh Language Commissioner: Assurance Report 2015-16
[4] Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 2 yw craffu ar waith Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, ar yr adroddiad sicrwydd yn benodol. Rydym eisiau cymryd tystiolaeth heddiw i weld beth rydych chi wedi bod yn ei wneud fel rhan o’r adroddiad hwnnw a cheisio craffu mwy ar gynnwys yr adroddiad hwnnw. Felly, diolch i chi am ddod heddiw. Nid wyf i’n gwybod a ydych chi eisiau cyflwyno eich hunain ac wedyn rhoi pwt bach o gyflwyniad i ni. Wedyn, bydd Aelodau’n gofyn cwestiynau yn dilyn hynny.	Bethan Jenkins: We move on to item 2, scrutiny of the work of the Welsh Language Commissioner, on the assurance report in particular. We want to hear evidence today to see what you’ve been doing as part of that report and to scrutinise in greater detail the content of that report. So, thank you very much for joining us today. I don’t know whether you want to introduce yourselves and then give us a brief introduction. Then, Members will ask their questions following that.
[5] Ms Huws: Gwych. Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch yn fawr am y cyfle i gyflwyno’r adroddiad sicrwydd i chi. Meri Huws, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, ydw i. Wrth fy ochr fan hyn mae Gwenith Price, sydd yn un o’r cyfarwyddwyr sydd â chyfrifoldeb am yr ochr rheoleiddio a chydymffurfio. Wedyn, fan hyn, ar yr ochr chwith i fi, mae Steffan Jones, yr uwch swyddog sydd, byddwn i’n dweud, yn olygydd ar yr adroddiad sydd o’ch blaenau chi. Mae gan Steffan gyfrifoldeb yn benodol am gydymffurfiaeth—sicrhau bod sefydliadau yn gallu cydymffurfio â’r Mesur a gwneud hynny mewn modd positif a gwneud hynny yn dda.	Ms Huws: Wonderful. Thank you very much, and thank you for the opportunity to present this assurance report to you. I’m Meri Huws, the Welsh Language Commissioner. Joining me is Gwenith Price, who is one of the directors with responsibility for compliance and enforcement. And, on my left is Steffan Jones, the senior compliance officer, who is the report’s editor, I would say. Steffan has particular responsibility for compliance—ensuring that institutions can comply with the Measure and can do so in a positive manner and do so effectively.
[6] Rwy’n credu mai dyma’r brif neges oddi wrthyf i, wrth gyhoeddi’r adroddiad yma: rwy’n gweithredu o fewn y Mesur, ond hefyd nod y darn yma o waith yw sicrhau bod llais y defnyddiwr yn cael ei glywed a bod hynny yn arwain at gydymffurfiaeth lwyddiannus ar ran sefydliadau yng Nghymru. Rwy’n credu mai dyma yw’r negeseuon cryf fan hyn: llais y defnyddwyr wrth y canol a chydymffurfiaeth sy’n fwy na rhoi tic mewn bocs, sydd yn golygu bod ansawdd bywyd o ran bod yn ddefnyddiwr gwasanaethau Cymraeg yng Nghymru yn un da.	I think that this is the main message from me, in publishing this report: I am working within the Welsh language Measure, but the aim of this piece of work is to ensure that the voice of the user is heard and that that leads to successful compliance on behalf of organisations in Wales. I think these are the strong messages emerging here: the voice of the user at the very heart of it and compliance that’s more than putting a tick in a box, which means that the quality of life in terms of being a Welsh language service user in Wales is a positive one.
[7] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch am hynny. Mae gen i’r cwestiwn cyntaf o ran yr agwedd y tu ôl i’r adroddiad sicrwydd yma yn benodol. Nid oedd yr adroddiad diwethaf, ‘Mesur newydd; meddylfryd newydd’, wedi cael ei sgrwtineiddio gan y Cynulliad diwethaf, ond, yn ôl beth rydym ni wedi’i ddarllen, mae’n cymryd agwedd wahanol i’r hyn rydych wedi’i wneud heddiw, o ran yr adroddiad sicrwydd sydd o’n blaenau. A oes rhesymeg dros hynny? Efallai ei bod hi’n anoddach, wedyn, i gymharu’r adroddiadau yn sgil hynny.	Bethan Jenkins: Thank you for that. I have the first question in terms of the rationale behind this particular assurance report. The previous report, ‘A new measure; a new mind-set’, wasn’t scrutinised by the previous Assembly, but, according to what we’ve read, it takes a different approach to what you’ve taken today, in terms of the assurance report before us. What’s the rationale behind that difference? It might be more difficult, then, to compare the reports.
[8] Ms Huws: Pwynt da. Dyma’r ail adroddiad sicrwydd i ni ei gyflwyno. Mae’n deg i ddweud bod yr adroddiad sicrwydd cyntaf yn arbrawf. Yr oeddem ni’n arbrofi gyda thechnegau casglu tystiolaeth ac mi fuom ni’n arbrofi gyda gwaith siopwr cudd ac arolygon thematig. Yr hyn a oedd yn yr adroddiad cyntaf oedd cofnod o hynny—cofnod o’r broses. Beth nad oedd yn dod allan mor glir yn yr adroddiad yna oedd y negeseuon.	Ms Huws: That’s a good point. This is the second assurance report that we’ve presented. It is fair to say that the first assurance report was an experimental one. We were experimenting with techniques of evidence gathering and we were experimenting with mystery shopper work and thematic surveys. What was contained within the first report was a record of that—a record of the process. What didn’t emerge as clearly in that report was the messages.
[9] Felly, mae’r ddau adroddiad yn defnyddio’r un fethodoleg, ond, yr hyn rydym wedi’i wneud yn glir iawn gyda’r adroddiad sicrwydd yma yw gosod ein hunain yn esgidiau’r defnyddiwr. Dyna oedd y nod o’r dechrau. Sut mae’n teimlo i fod yn ddefnyddiwr gwasanaethau Cymraeg yng Nghymru yn y cyfnod yma o flwyddyn? Rwy’n credu bod hyn yn bwysig hefyd—y flwyddyn cyn bod safonau’n weithredol. Felly, o ran bod yn ddefnyddiwr, roedd llinell yn y tywod o ran beth oedd y profiad. Felly, mae’r adroddiad yma wedi’i strwythuro’n wahanol.	So, the two reports used the same methodology, but what we have done, and done very clearly, with this assurance report is to place ourselves in the service user’s shoes. That was the aim from the very outset. How does it feel to be a user of Welsh language services in Wales in this period of a year? I think that is important too—it was the year before standards were to be implemented. So, in being a service user, there was a line in the sand in terms of what the user experience was. Therefore, this report is structured differently.
[10] Fe glywom ni brif negeseuon, a dyna yw strwythur yr adroddiad. Y prif negeseuon, ac rwy’n siŵr y gwnawn ni edrych arnyn nhw’n fanylach, yw bod yn rhaid i chi fod yn weddol o benderfynol os ydych chi’n ddefnyddiwr gwasanaethau Cymraeg. Mae’n rhaid i chi geisio a cheisio ac nid yw ansawdd y profiad wastad mor bositif ac y gallai fod. Rwy’n credu mai’r drydedd neges sy’n dod allan yn glir yw bod yna her fan hyn i sefydliadau o ran cynllunio’r gweithlu a sicrhau bod y bobl iawn yn y llefydd iawn i ddarparu gwasanaethau.	We heard the main messages, and that’s what the structure of the report is. I’m sure we’ll move to look at the main messages in more detail, but they were that you do have to be quite determined if you are a user of Welsh language services. You have to try and try again and the quality of the experience isn’t always as positive as it could be. I think the third message that emerges clearly is that there is a challenge here for organisations in terms of workforce planning and ensuring that the right people are in the right places to provide services.
[11] Felly, rwy’n derbyn beth rydych chi’n ei ddweud, ei bod hi’n anodd efallai i gymharu’r ddau, ond roedd penderfyniad penodol iawn i’w strwythuro mewn ffordd wahanol er mwyn clywed llais y defnyddiwr yn glir. Gobeithio, wedyn, y bydd hynny’n sbarduno darparwyr.	So, I accept what you say, that it’s difficult to compare the two assurance reports, but it was a very specific decision taken to structure this in a different way in order to hear the voice of service users more clearly. I hope, then, that that will encourage providers.
[12] Bethan Jenkins: A ydych chi’n cytuno, efallai, eich bod chi wedi disgrifio’r broblem a chanfod y meysydd sydd yn peri pryder, ond ddim o reidrwydd wedi darparu enghreifftiau o arfer gorau? A ydy hynny’n mynd i ddilyn mewn adroddiadau pellach, neu a ydych chi’n disgwyl bod mwy o waith yn mynd i gael ei wneud gan eich staff chi i edrych ar fanylder y problemau sydd yn bodoli i ddefnyddwyr yma yng Nghymru?	Bethan Jenkins: Do you agree, therefore, that you’ve described the problem and identified those issues that do cause concern, but you haven’t necessarily provided examples of best practice? Is that going to follow on in future reports, or do you expect that more work will be done by your staff to look at the detail of those problems that do exist for users here in Wales?
[13] Ms Huws: Mi drof i at y ddau yma mewn munud, achos yn eu dwylo nhw y bydd y gwaith camau nesaf. O’m rhan i, fel comisiynydd, dechrau’r daith yw cyhoeddi’r adroddiad. Pe bawn i jest yn cyhoeddi’r adroddiad a’i osod ar silff, a’i dynnu fe oddi ar y silff mewn blwyddyn er mwyn ei gymharu fe â’r adroddiad sicrwydd nesaf, mi fuaswn i wedi methu. Mae yna ddarn sylweddol o waith yn dilyn y cyhoeddi yma. Fe wnaethom ni gyhoeddi wythnos diwethaf, fe wnaethom ni sesiwn briffio fan hyn, ac rŷm ni’n falch iawn o’r cyfle i fod yn siarad â chi fel gwneuthurwyr polisi a’r rhai sydd yn dylanwadu ar bolisi. Ond mi wnaf i droi at Gwenith a Steffan o ran y camau nesaf a beth sy’n digwydd nesaf.	Ms Huws: I’ll turn to my colleagues in just a moment, because the next steps will be in their hands. From my point of view, as commissioner, the publication of this report is the beginning of the journey. If I were just to publish the report and place it on a shelf, and take it down in a year’s time in order to compare it with the next assurance report, I would have failed in my task. There is a very significant piece of work following on from the publication of this report. We published last week, and we carried out a briefing session here, and we’re very pleased to have the opportunity to speak to you as policymakers and those who influence policy. But I will now turn to Gwenith and Steffan in terms of the next steps and what’s happening next.
[14] Ms Price: Ie, yn sicr. O ran y camau nesaf, rydym ni yn bendant iawn yn gallu cyhoeddi adroddiad yn dangos y canfyddiadau, ond mae gennym ni weithdai efo sefydliadau, lle rydym ni’n mynd i ddilyn y data, trafod y data, trafod y canfyddiadau, a gofyn iddyn nhw helpu yn y drafodaeth i ddadansoddi beth sydd angen iddo ddigwydd, a oes yna arfer da, beth yw arfer da, ac ydy o’n drosglwyddiadwy. Felly, rydym ni yn mynd i fod yn casglu gwybodaeth. Mae gennym ni swyddogion sydd yn gwneud gwaith ar arfer da, ond mi rydym ni hefyd yn edrych ar y gyfundrefn safonau ac yn awyddus iawn i gasglu enghreifftiau sydd yn gymwys i’r gyfundrefn yna.	Ms Price: Yes, certainly. In terms of the next steps, we can definitely publish a report showing the findings, but we have workshops with institutions at which we follow the data, discuss the data, discuss the findings, and ask them to help in the discussion to analyse what needs to happen next, whether there is best practice out there, what the best practice is, and whether it is transferable. So, we will be gathering information. We do have officials who are doing work on best practice, but we’re also looking at the standards regime and we are very eager to gather examples that are applicable to that regime.
[15] Yn sicr, rydym wedi ei gwneud yn reit glir yn y fframwaith rheoleiddio ein bod ni’n bwriadu datblygu llyfrgell o arferion sydd yn drosglwyddiadwy a gweithio efo sefydliadau, ond, mewn gwirionedd, nhw sydd yn gweithredu. Gallwn ni fod yn gatalydd i rannu’r wybodaeth a sicrhau bod y wybodaeth ar gael, ond mae’n rhaid inni fynd i gyswllt efo sefydliadau. Felly, mae’r canfyddiadau yn fan hyn o beth yw’r profiad, ond mae’n rhaid inni gydweithio, rwy’n meddwl.	Indeed, we have made it very clear in our regulatory framework that we do intend to develop a library of practices that are transferable and to work with institutions, but, in truth, it is they who will have to take action. We can be a catalyst in sharing the information and ensuring that it is available, but we have to link up with institutions. So, the findings are here of what the experiences are for the user, but we have to collaborate, I think.
[16] Mae yna bedwar gweithdy ar y gweill yn y bythefnos nesaf. Byddwn ni hefyd yn mynd i weld sefydliadau unigol. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth a fydd yn digwydd er mwyn trafod y canfyddiadau yn eu sefyllfa unigol nhw. Os ydyn nhw’n dymuno gwybodaeth, mi allwn ni ddarparu gwybodaeth iddyn nhw ar eu perfformiad nhw. Rydym ni hefyd yn bwydo’r canfyddiadau i’n rhaglenni gwaith ni y flwyddyn nesaf ac wedyn. So, os byddwn ni’n gweld problem, mae gennym ni swyddogion sydd yn ceisio mynd ar ôl problemau systemig, i’w datrys nhw. Nid ydy pethau’n gallu digwydd yn syth na dros nos, felly mae’n rhaid inni fwydo rhai pethau i mewn i raglenni gwaith. Ond, ein nod ni, yn sicr, yw cael traw effaith, ac mae rhannu arferion da yn un ffordd. Ffordd arall, wrth gwrs, ydy ein bod ni’n rhagrybuddio ynglŷn â chanfyddiadau, ac mae hynny ynddo ei hun yn bwysig, ryw’n meddwl, sef bod ein sefydliad ni’n dweud wrth y darparwyr, ‘Dyma beth yw’r profiad.’	There are four workshops being held over the next fortnight. We will also be going to see individual organisations. That is something that will happen in order to discuss the findings according to their particular situations. If they wish to have information, then we can provide that information to them on their performance. We also feed in the findings to our work programmes for next year and thereafter. So, if we do see that there is a problem, then we have officials who will pursue those systemic problems, to solve them. But things cannot happen overnight; we do have to feed some issues into work programmes. But, our aim, certainly, is to have an impact, and sharing best practice is one way of doing that. Another way, of course, is that we offer forewarning in terms of our findings, and that in itself is very important, I think, in that our organisation tells the providers, ‘Well, this is what the experience is.’
[17] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch am hynny. Jest yn fras, yn glou, a fedrwch chi ateb ynglŷn â’r agwedd tuag at yr arolygon? Sut y gwnaethoch chi fynd ati i ddewis pa feysydd y byddwch chi’n edrych arnynt? Roedd pob cyngor bwrdeistref yn rhan o hyn, heblaw am Dorfaen, a’r byrddau iechyd, ond nid yr ystod llawn o wasanaethau cyhoeddus felly. Byddai diddordeb gyda ni ddeall beth oedd y rationale y tu ôl i hynny.	Bethan Jenkins: Thank you for that. Roughly, briefly, can you respond on the approach taken to the surveyss? How did you go about choosing the kinds of issues you would look at? Every borough council was involved in this, except for Torfaen, and the health boards, but the full range of public services wasn’t involved. It would be interesting for us to understand what the rationale was behind that.
[18] Mr Jones: Iawn. O safbwynt pam dewisom ni rhai sefydliadau a sectorau ar gyfer yr arolygon, fel ŷch chi wedi nodi, mae yna gysondeb o safbwynt y ffaith bod cynghorau sir, byrddau iechyd, yr ymddiriedolaethau a’r heddluoedd wedi bod yn destun i’r rhan fwyaf o’r arolygon hyn. Wrth reswm, mae adnoddau yn golygu efallai nad oes modd i bob sefydliad sydd yn gweithredu naill ai safonau neu gynlluniau iaith fod yn destun i bob arolwg, ond fel yr ŷm ni wedi clywed eisoes, yr awydd gyda’r adroddiad hwn oedd cael trosolwg cyffredinol o berfformiad ystod eang o sefydliadau, ond rwy’n meddwl ei bod yn deg dweud, fel y mae’r comisiynydd wedi nodi, gan fod nifer gynyddol o sefydliadau bellach yn dod o dan safonau, y bydd hynny’n ffocws ar gyfer adroddiadau’r dyfodol hefyd.	Mr Jones: Right. From the point of view of why we chose certain organisations and sectors for the surveys, as you’ve suggested, there is consistency in terms of the fact that county councils, health boards, the trusts and the police forces have been subject to most of these surveys. Now, naturally, the resources will mean that not all organisations that are implementing either standards or language schemes could be subject to all of our surveys and reviews, but as we have already heard, the desire with this report was to take a general overview of the performance of a wide range of organisations, but I think it is fair to say, as the commissioner has already noted, that as an increasing number of institutions are captured under standards, that will be a focus for future reports also.
[19] Bethan Jenkins: Suzy, a oes gennyt ti gwestiwn?	Bethan Jenkins: Suzy, do you have a question?
[20] Suzy Davies: Jest ar y pwynt hwn, roeddwn i’n falch o glywed eich bod chi’n mynd yn ôl at sefydliadau, achos nid oes name and shame yn yr adroddiad yma, i’w helpu nhw a rhoi cefnogaeth iddyn nhw, ac mae hynny’n bwysig. Ond lle mae yna ddiffyg, ac mae yna ddiffyg, a ydych chi’n gweld bod yna wahaniaeth mawr rhwng y cynllun gwreiddiol a’r safonau newydd sy’n mynd i effeithio ar y sefydliadau sydd ddim wedi dod lan i scratch mewn ffordd?	Suzy Davies: Yes, just on this point, I was very pleased to hear that you were going back to organisations, because there’s no naming and shaming in this report, to help them and give support to them, and that’s very important. But where there is a deficiency, and there is a deficiency, do you see that there’s a big difference between the original scheme and the new standards that is going to affect those organisations that haven’t come up to scratch in a way?
[21] Ms Price: Mae yna enghreifftiau yn yr adroddiad yma, lle efallai bod yna sefydliad wedi ymrwymo mewn cynllun iaith, er enghraifft, i ohebu, ac mae yna enghreifftiau i’w cael yn yr adroddiad lle mae yna ddatganiad clir i ohebu yn Gymraeg efo rhywun sydd yn ysgrifennu atyn nhw yn y Gymraeg, ond, o’n gwaith profi gohebiaeth, ar dri achlysur, mae’r sefydliad wedi mynd nôl at unigolyn a gofyn iddyn nhw ohebu yn Saesneg. Felly, mae yna bethau rydym yn eu gweld o’r gyfundrefn cynlluniau iaith sydd ddim yn gyson â’r ymrwymiadau. Ond os ydych yn edrych ar effaith y safonau, efallai, a meddwl beth fydd y gwahaniaeth, rwy’n meddwl bod y safonau penodol sydd yna—. Er enghraifft, yn y set gyntaf, lle mae gennych chi safon am ohebiaeth, lle mae disgwyl i’r sefydliad ymrwymo i beidio ag arwain at oedi, roedd yn amlwg yn ein gwaith profi ni ar ohebiaeth bod yna oedi wedi bod wrth ohebu yn ôl yn y Gymraeg. Felly, os bydd sefydliad yn cydymffurfio â’r safonau, mae’r safonau’n disgwyl na fydd oedi wrth ohebu.	Ms Price: There are examples in this report, where perhaps an organisation has committed in a language scheme, for example, to correspond through the medium of Welsh, and there are examples in the report where there is a clear statement that they will respond to Welsh correspondence in Welsh, but, from the work that we’ve done on correspondence, on three occasions, the organisation has gone back to the individual and asked them to respond in English. So, there are things that we see from the language schemes that aren’t consistent with their commitments. But if you look at the impact of standards, perhaps, and consider what the difference will be, then I think that the specific standards that exist—. For example, in the first set, where you have a standard on correspondence, where the organisation is asked to commit not to cause delay in responding to Welsh correspondence, it was clear to us that there had been delay in corresponding back through the medium of Welsh. So, if an organisation complies with the standards, then the standards expect that there be no delay in corresponding through the medium of Welsh.
[22] Enghraifft arall, efallai, ydy’r safon hybu. Nid wyf yn meddwl, o dan y gyfundrefn cynlluniau iaith, fod yna gymaint o bwyslais ar hybu bodolaeth gwasanaethau Cymraeg, ond mae yna safonau penodol ac mae’r Mesur ei hun yn sôn am yr angen i hybu a chynyddu cyfleoedd. Felly, mae hwn yn shifft yn y disgwyliad ar sefydliadau i’w wneud yn amlwg. Felly, mae safon 81, rwy’n meddwl, yn benodol iawn ynglŷn â hybu’r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael.	Another example, perhaps, is the standard of promoting. I don’t think, under the Welsh language scheme regime, that there was enough emphasis on promoting the existence of Welsh language services, but there are specific standards there and the Measure itself mentions the need to promote and increase opportunities. So, this is a shift in the expectation on organisations to make it clear. So, I think standard 81 is very specific on promoting those services that are available.
[23] Mae’r diwrnod gosod hefyd yn elfen fwy cyffredinol ar draws y drefn safonau, lle mae disgwyl i sefydliadau gwrdd â gofynion erbyn rhyw ddiwrnod. Felly, o ran cynlluniau iaith, roedd yna ymrwymiad i wella, ond nid oedd dyddiadau lle oedd yna ddisgwyl iddyn nhw gwrdd â’r ddyletswydd. Ond er fy mod i’n gweld bod yna bethau sydd yn mynd i wella cydymffurfiaeth yn y drefn, rwy’n meddwl bod rhaid inni hefyd dderbyn, os ydych yn ystyried ansawdd profiad, er enghraifft, fod hynny ddim yn rhywbeth sydd yn newid oherwydd cyfraith, efallai, neu symud o gynllun iaith i safon—mae’n disgwyl arweiniad o fewn y sefydliad a diwylliant o fod yn dymuno deall beth ydy diffygion gwasanaeth a hyfforddi, a rhoi arweiniad i’r staff ynglŷn â sut i ddarparu gwasanaeth o well ansawdd.	The day of implementation is also a more general element across the standards regime, where organisations are expected to meet standards by a certain day. So, in terms of Welsh language schemes, there was a commitment to improve, but there were no specific dates where they would be expected to meet those duties. But whilst I do see that there are things that will improve compliance, I do think that we must also accept that, if you consider the quality of experience, for example, that isn't something that changes as a result of a new law, perhaps, or moving from a language scheme to a standard—you need leadership within the institution and a culture of wanting to understand the deficiencies in the service and training, and provide leadership to staff as to how to provide a better quality service in future.
[24] Mae yna rai pethau, megis yn rhan olaf yr adroddiad, am ddiffyg gweithlu dwyieithog neu ddiffyg cynllunio gweithlu. Mae’r broblem yna yn un a fydd dal efo ni o dan y gyfundrefn newydd, ac y mae’n rhaid inni weithio i weld sut y gallwn ni ddatblygu. Ond mae yna arwyddion bod yna newid. Rydym wedi dod ar draws yr adroddiadau blynyddol sydd wedi eu cyhoeddi gan y cylch cyntaf o gyrff dan safonau, ac mae yna un wedi cyhoeddi adroddiad yn adrodd eu bod nhw wedi cynyddu, yn reit sylweddol, nifer y staff y maen nhw’n gofyn amdanyn nhw efo sgiliau yn y Gymraeg. Felly, mae’n amlwg bod yna ymateb i’r drefn newydd a’u bod nhw’n gweld y cyswllt rhwng yr angen am ddigon o bobl a’r sgiliau dwyieithog i allu diwallu—	There are certain things, such as in the final part of the report, on problems in terms of a bilingual workforce or problems in terms of workforce planning. That problem then is one that will remain under the new regime, and we have to work to see how we can develop those areas. But there are signs of a change. We have come across the annual reports published by the first round of organisations captured under standards, and one has published a report reporting that they have increased quite substantially the number of staff they require who have Welsh language skills. So, clearly, there is a response to the new regime and we do see that link between the need to have enough people who have bilingual skills to actually meet—
[25] Bethan Jenkins: Sori, ond nid wyf eisiau cyfro popeth mewn un cwestiwn, rhag ofn—[Chwerthin.]	Bethan Jenkins: Sorry, but I don’t want to cover everything in response to one question, just in case—[Laughter.]
[26] Suzy Davies: Jest i adio dau bwynt bach ychwanegol—ynglŷn â sgiliau, achos ffeindiais y bennod ar sgiliau yn ddiddorol iawn, pan rŷch chi’n gofyn, ‘A ydych yn siarad Cymraeg?’, wel, beth y mae hynny’n ei feddwl? Felly, yn y safonau, fel y maen nhw ar hyn o bryd, a ydy’n glir sut mae’r rhain yn gallu helpu sefydliadau i weld lle mae’r ansawdd yn y Gymraeg a’r eirfa y maen nhw’n ei hiwso yn benodol—? Beth rwy’n trio ei ddweud yw ei bod yn wahanol i rywun sy’n mynd i roi tystiolaeth i bwyllgor fel hwn i rywun sy’n gweithio yn y dderbynfa. Sut y mae sefydliadau’n gallu helpu—? Rydych chi wedi dweud, ‘Y bobl orau yn y lle gorau.’ Ydych chi wedi gweld unrhyw brawf bod sefydliadau wedi gweld nad ydy’r Gymraeg jest yn un peth?	Suzy Davies: Just to add two brief points—in terms of skills, because I found the chapter on skills very interesting, if somebody asks whether you speak Welsh, what does that question mean? So, in the standards, as they currently stand, is it clear how they can help organisations to see where there is value in the Welsh language and the vocabulary that they use specifically—? What I’m trying to say is that it’s different for someone who’s going to be giving evidence to a committee such as this than for someone working in reception. So, how can organisations help—? You’ve said yourself, ‘The best people in the best place.’ Have you seen any evidence that organisations have seen that Welsh isn’t just one thing?
09:45
[27] Ms Huws: Fel dywedodd Gwenith, nid wyf yn credu bod safonau yn eu hunain yn mynd i gyrraedd y nod ar bob achlysur, ond mae sefydliadau yn dechrau adnabod yr angen yna i fod yn lot fwy soffistigedig ynglŷn â’r ffordd maen nhw’n gofyn am sgiliau ieithyddol. Weithiau, mae sgiliau cyfathrebu llafar yn ddigon—nid oes angen y sgiliau i fod yn gallu sgwennu adroddiadau. Rŷch chi wedi fy nghlywed i’n dweud o’r blaen nad oes angen gallu barddoni yn y Gymraeg er mwyn gallu gweithredu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn effeithiol mewn gwahanol sefyllfaoedd. Felly, mae’r gwaith rydym yn ei wneud gyda sefydliadau tu ôl y safonau a thu ôl y cynlluniau iaith yn bwysig. Rŷm ni wedi darparu arweiniad iddyn nhw ar recriwtio—sut maen nhw’n gofyn am sgiliau ieithyddol, sut maen nhw’n gosod lefelau, a gwneud hynny mewn ffordd sy’n cael y bobl iawn yn y llefydd iawn. Ac rydym yn gweld sefydliadau yn defnyddio’r rheini nawr.	Ms Huws: As Gwenith said, I don’t think standards in and of themselves are going to reach that aim on all occasions, but institutions are starting to recognise that need in being far more sophisticated in how they require linguistic skills. Sometimes, oral Welsh language skills are perfectly adequate—you don’t the skills to draft a report in Welsh. You’ve heard me say before that you don’t need to be a Welsh language poet in order to actually work effectively through the medium of Welsh in various circumstances. So, the work that we do with organisations backing up the standards and the language schemes is important. We’ve provided guidance to them on recruitment—how they ask for language skills, how they set levels, and how they do that in a way that gets the right people in the right places. And we are seeing organisations using those now.
[28] Rŷm ni hefyd yn cael trafodaeth ddifyr ar hyn o bryd â’r ganolfan newydd o ran dysgu Cymraeg—yr hen Gymraeg i oedolion. Ac rŷm yn gweithio ar y cyd i ddatblygu ffyrdd o ddisgrifio’r sgiliau ieithyddol yna mewn ffordd a fydd yn gyson ar draws Cymru. Mae sawl model ar hyn bryd.	We are also having an interesting debate with the new centre in terms of teaching Welsh to adults—the old Welsh for adults. And we are working jointly to develop ways of describing those language skills that will be consistent across Wales. There are a number of models at the moment.
[29] Felly, mae tipyn o waith yn digwydd yn y cefndir, sydd yn galluogi sefydliadau i fod yn fwy soffistigedig yn y ffordd maen nhw’n gofyn am y sgiliau, ac nid i wneud hynny mewn ffordd sy’n hala ofon chwaith. Rŷm ni wedi cael tystiolaeth bod pobl ddim yn licio dweud eu bod nhw yn siarad Cymraeg, rhag ofn eu bod nhw’n bennu lan gyda’r swyddogaeth o fod yn cyfieithu papurau cabinet ac yn y blaen. Felly, o ofyn y cwestiynau mewn ffordd sydd yn gwneud synnwyr i’r person sy’n treial am y swydd hefyd, mae modd cael y bobl iawn yn y llefydd iawn. Felly, rŷm ni yn gweld symud ar hynny, o jest yr hanfodol i beth yw hanfodol.	There is a lot of work happening in the background, which enables organisations to be more sophisticated in the way that they do request those skills, and not to do so in a way that actually frightens people. We have received some evidence from people who say that they don’t want to say that they speak Welsh, in case they are landed with the responsibility of translating cabinet papers and so on. So, in asking the questions in a way that actually makes sense to the individual applying for the post, then you can get the right person in the right place. So, we are seeing some movement in that area from what a Welsh language requirement is and what that requirement means.
[30] Suzy Davies: O ran defnyddwyr y Gymraeg, y rhai sydd â’r hawliau, beth yw eu hagwedd nhw tuag at bobl sydd ddim cweit wedi cyrraedd yr ansawdd perthnasol i’r swydd? A ydych chi wedi dod o hyd i dipyn bach o give and take neu ydy hi’n dibynnu lle mae pobl yn byw neu rywbeth?	Suzy Davies: In terms of the users, the people who have the rights, what is their attitude towards people who haven’t quite reached the relevant standard to a particular post? Have you found an element of give and take with that, or does it depend on where people live or something?
[31] Ms Price: Mae’r adroddiad yn rhoi enghreifftiau lle roeddem ni wedi gwneud gwaith profi, ac ar adegau roedd enghreifftiau’n dangos bod y person a oedd yn siarad â nhw ar y ffôn ddim yn gallu gwneud y gwaith drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn unol â beth oedd gofynion y rôl, mewn ffordd. Felly, mae yna rai enghreifftiau yn fanna lle mae hyn wedi effeithio ar y profiad, a beth oedd yr unigolyn yn ceisio’i gael, ac roedd yna ambell dro lle roedd Saesneg wedi cael ei defnyddio. Rwy’n meddwl bod yr argraff hefyd yn cael ei roi yn yr adroddiad efallai bod y sefydliad yn rhoi rhywun weithiau i wneud darn o waith, pan nad ydy’r swyddog yna ddim cweit efo’r sgiliau digonol i wneud y rôl. Felly, mae yna le i wella, rwy’n meddwl, yn y ffordd mae rhywun yn gosod pobl mewn swyddi neu ddarnau penodol o waith.	Ms Price: The report does provide some examples of where we have done some work to look at this issue, and at times examples did demonstrate that a person speaking on the telephone couldn’t actually have that conversation through the medium of Welsh in accordance with the requirement of the role. So, there are certain examples there where it has impacted on the user experience, and what the individual was seeking to achieve, and there were a few examples where they had to turn to English. I do think that the impression is given in the report that the organisation perhaps sometimes puts an individual in place to do a piece of work where that official doesn’t have adequate skills to carry out that role. Therefore, there is room for improvement, I think, in the way one actually places individuals in posts or gives them specific pieces of work to do.
[32] Ms Huws: Fe soniodd Gwenith a Steffan am y gweithdai sydd yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Rŷm ni yn ceisio targedu swyddogion adnoddau dynol mewn sefydliadau, oherwydd rwy’n credu eu bod nhw’n ganolog i greu y dealltwriaeth yma. Felly, mae gwahoddiadau’n mynd allan i swyddogion adnoddau dynol, ac rwy’n deall bod nifer wedi cofrestru ar gyfer y digwyddiadau ymbweru yma sy’n digwydd wedi cyhoeddi hwn.	Ms Huws: Gwenith and Steffan talked about the workshops that are currently happening. We are trying to target human resources officials because I think they are at the heart of creating this understanding. So, invitations are going out to HR officers, and I do understand that a number of them have registered for these empowerment events that are taking place after this publication.
[33] Suzy Davies: Ocê. Diolch.	Suzy Davies: Okay. Thanks.
[34] Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy.	Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy.
[35] Jeremy Miles: A gaf i fynd yn ôl at y cwestiwn yma o weithdai, achos fe wnaethoch chi sôn, Gwenith, am newid diwylliant? Ac mae’n fy nharo i mai’r dasg sydd o’n blaenau ni fan hyn yw bod angen chwyldroi diwylliant o fewn sefydliadau a dweud y gwir, onid oes? Roeddwn yn falch eich clywed chi’n sôn am y gweithdai, a’n falch eich clywed yn sôn am y cyfle i fynd nôl at y sefydliadau yma i roi adborth penodol iddyn nhw ar eu sefydliad nhw. Oes posib, oes gobaith, oes cynllun i ddarparu’r math yna o wasanaeth i sefydliadau yn gyffredinol—hynny yw, nid yn unig y rhai sydd yn rhan o’r adroddiad yma, ond eich bod chi’n gallu mynd mewn a chefnogi’r mudiadau yma, y sefydliadau yma, i newid yn fewnol, ac efallai i’w hannog nhw i ledaenu hynny i sefydliadau a chwmnïau eraill? Oes cynllun i wneud hynny?	Jeremy Miles: On this question of workshops, because you did mention earlier, Gwenith, a culture shift. And it appears to me that the task facing us is that we need to actually totally transform culture within organisations, don’t we? I was pleased to hear you talking about workshops, and I was pleased to hear you talking about the opportunity to go back to these organisations to give them specific feedback. Is there any opportunity or any plan to provide that sort of service to organisations more generally—that is, not just those that were captured within this report, but that you can actually go in and support organisations and institutions to carry out that culture change and perhaps to encourage them to actually broaden that within their own organisations and within other organisations? Are there any plans to do that?
[36] Ms Price: Dros amser, fel roeddwn yn sôn o’r blaen am gasglu enghreifftiau o arferion da, rydym yn chwilio i ddatblygu sut ydym ni’n rhannu a throsglwyddo arferion. Yn amlwg, mae’n rhaid inni gael cyswllt â sefydliadau, ac mae’n rhaid i’r llif gwybodaeth fod yn un agored er mwyn inni gael yr arferion. Mae’n fframwaith rheoleiddio ni’n dweud yn glir ein bod ni’n dymuno i bobl roi gwybod, a’n bod ni’n dymuno gofyn am atebion. Rŷm ni hefyd yn dymuno siarad â defnyddwyr, achos mae’n bosib iawn fod ganddyn nhw hefyd atebion i rai pethau, o drafod â nhw, nid dim ond y sefydliadau. Felly, mae’r cydbwysedd yna’n bwysig, o weithio efo sefydliadau a gweithio efo defnyddwyr.	Ms Price: Over time, as I said previously about gathering together examples of good practice, we are looking to develop how we share and transfer best practice. Obviously, we have to have a connection with organisations, and there has to be that flow of information that is an open one so that we can gather those examples. Our regulatory framework says very clearly that we do ask people to let us know, and that we wish to ask for responses. We also wish to talk to users, because it’s very possible that they, too, might have answers to some issues, from discussing with them, not just organisations as a whole. So, having that balance is important, working with organisations and working with users.
[37] Nid wy’n meddwl ein bod ni wedi penderfynu cyfyngu’r gweithdai i rai sy’n destun y gwaith yma yn neilltuol. Rŷm ni eisiau trafod ag unrhyw sefydliad sydd dan ddyletswydd ynglŷn â sut maen nhw’n delio â sgiliau. Efallai, flwyddyn nesaf, byddwn ni’n dewis thema wahanol, ond mae pwynt yn dod, rwy’n meddwl, lle mae ein gwaith ni’n gorffen ac mae cyfrifoldeb ar y sefydliad i ysgwyddo’r cyfrifoldeb i newid ac i osod camau gwahanol—roeddech chi’n sôn am rai  ‘chwyldroadol’, ond gwneud rhywbeth sy’n mynd i newid y ffordd maen nhw’n darparu er mwyn iddyn nhw gyflawni, ac rwy’n meddwl bod hynny’n aros efo nhw, yn y pen draw.	I don’t think that we have decided to restrict the workshops to those people who are subject to this work. We want to talk to any organisation that is under a duty in terms of how they deal with skills. Perhaps next year we will choose a different theme, but there does come a point where our work finishes and the responsibility is on the organisation to shoulder the responsibility for change and to take different steps—you talked about ‘revolutionary’ steps, but to do something that does change the way that they provide so that they can achieve, and I think that that responsibility stays with them, ultimately.
[38] Ms Huws: A gaf i hefyd sôn am y gwaith rŷm ni’n ei wneud gyda chyrff ymbarél? Rŷm ni’n sôn fan hyn yn benodol iawn am sefydliadau a fydd yn dod o dan y safonau, ond rŷm ni hefyd yn gweithio’n agos iawn gyda Chyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru—y WCVA—er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni’n cyrraedd mudiadau trydydd sector ac elusennau. Mae hynny mor bwysig iddyn nhw wrth iddyn nhw ddarparu gwasanaethau. Yn yr un ffordd, rŷm ni’n gweithio gyda sefydliadau megis Chwaraeon Cymru i gyrraedd y llefydd yna buasem ni ddim yn cyrraedd trwy’r gweithdai. Mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru wedi bod yn ganolog i’n gwaith ni yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf o ran newid diwylliant, creu dealltwriaeth ymysg sefydliadau ynglŷn â pham mae hyn yn digwydd. Dyna’r brif sialens, rwy’n credu. Unwaith mae pobl, prif weithredwyr a swyddogion adnoddau dynol yn deall y ‘pam’, mae’r ‘sut’ yn dod tipyn yn haws, wedyn. Felly, mae’r gwaith ar y cyd yna yn digwydd.	Ms Huws: May I also mention the work that we do with umbrella organisations? We are talking here very specifically about organisations that will be captured under standards, but we also work very closely with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action in order to ensure that we reach third sector organisations and charitable organisations. It is so important that they, as they provide their services, work effectively. Likewise, we are working with organisations such as Sport Wales in order to reach those places that we wouldn’t actually reach through our workshops. The Welsh Local Government Association has been central to our work over the past year in terms of changing the culture and creating an understanding among organisations as to why this is happening. That’s the main challenge, I think. Once people, chief executives and HR officials understand the ‘why’, then the ‘how’ is much easier, then. So, that joint working is ongoing.
[39] Rŷm ni hefyd yn gweithio’n eithaf agos gyda rheoleiddwyr eraill, oherwydd nid oes dim byd yn waeth na chael dau, dri neu bedwar rheoleiddiwr yn mynd i mewn i sefydliad yn gofyn yr un cwestiynau. Felly, rŷm ni’n treial hwyluso’r gwaith yna, a gweithio’n agos iawn gyda Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru. Rŷm ni’n gweithio ar hyn o bryd yn agos iawn gyda rheoleiddwyr newydd yn y maes gofal cymdeithasol, wrth i’r gyfundrefn newydd gael ei sefydlu, ac wrth i’r ddeddfwriaeth newydd gael ei sefydlu. Rŷm ni’n gweithio gyda Chyngor Gofal Cymru ac Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru i sicrhau ein bod ni’n gofyn yr un cwestiynau ar yr un pryd, ac yn mynd i’r un cyfeiriad i greu’r un ddealltwriaeth. Felly, mae haenau a haenau o waith yn digwydd fan hyn, gyda sefydliadau unigol, ond hefyd gyda’r cyrff ymbarél a chyda rheoleiddwyr eraill. Ni wnawn ni gau’r drws ar unrhyw un.	We are also working closely with other regulators, because there’s nothing worse than having two, three or four regulators going in to the same organisations, asking the same questions. So, we’re trying to facilitate that work by working very closely with the Wales Audit Office. We are currently working very closely with the new regulators in terms of social care, as that new regime is bedding in and as the new legislation is also taking effect. We are working with the Care Council for Wales and the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales in order to ensure that we’re asking the same questions at the same time and taking the same direction of travel so that we have that understanding. So, there are layers upon layers of work happening here with individual organisations, but also with the umbrella organisations and the other regulators. We won’t close the door to anyone.
[40] Jeremy Miles: Fel rhan o hyn, a yw’n realistig neu’n adeiladol i edrych ar rwydwaith o bobl yn y cwmnïau a’r sefydliadau hyn sydd wedi llwyddo i newid pethau o fewn eu sefydliadau eu hunain neu’n hyrwyddo’r peth i bobl eraill? A ydy hynny’n beth adeiladol a realistig?	Jeremy Miles: As part of this, is it realistic or constructive to look at a network of people in these organisations or companies that have succeeded in ensuring change within their own institutions or promoting this to other people? Is that something that’s constructive and realistic?
[41] Ms Huws: Ydy, mae’n adeiladol iawn, ac mae’n realistig hefyd, ac mae’n dechrau digwydd. Rŷm ni’n gallu pwsio’r bêl mewn i’r gêm, ond wedyn mae angen i bobl eraill bigo’r bêl yna lan a dechrau rhedeg. Llynedd, fe wnaethom ni gynnal sesiwn arbennig yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi. Y rheswm dros wneud hynny oedd bod mudiadau trydydd sector yng Nghymru yn dweud wrthon ni, ‘Rŷm ni’n deall yn iawn beth yw’r angen o ran y Gymraeg, ond y penaethiaid sy’n eistedd yn Llundain, Birmingham a Manceinion, pam fuasen nhw’n deall?’ Felly, fe wnaethom ni benderfynu cynnal digwyddiad yn Llundain, ac fe fuon ni’n ddigon ffodus i gael Tanni Grey-Thompson yn fodlon noddi ac arwain y diwrnod yna. Mae’r un digwyddiad yna wedi creu rhwydwaith sydd ddim byd i’w wneud â ni’n uniongyrchol, ond mudiadau elusennol trydydd sector Prydeinig sydd nawr yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd i greu’r ddealltwriaeth. Maen nhw’n troi atom ni am adnoddau weithiau, ond maen nhw’n gallu cynnal eu hunain, maen nhw’n cael y drafodaeth eu hunain. So, mae’r rhwydweithio yna yn gallu digwydd, ac rŷm ni wrth ein bodd bod hynny’n digwydd a’n bod ni’n gallu hwyluso hynny.	Ms Huws: It’s very constructive and realistic, and it is starting to happen. We can push the ball onto the pitch, but we need other people to actually pick that ball up and run with it. Last year, we held a session in the House of Lords, and the reason for doing that was that third sector organisations in Wales were telling us, ‘Well, we understand exactly what the needs and requirements are in terms of the Welsh language, but the senior officials in London, Birmingham and Manchester, why would they understand?’ So, we decided to hold an event in London, and we were fortunate enough to have Tanni Grey-Thompson willing to sponsor and lead that event. That one event has created a network, which has nothing to do with us directly, but they are charitable and third sector organisations on a UK-wide level who are now collaborating in order to create that understanding. They do turn to us for resources on occasion, but they can sustain themselves and they’re having that debate themselves. So, those networks can be established, and we are delighted that that is happening and that we can facilitate that.
[42] Mae’n digwydd yn y sector preifat hefyd. Rŷm ni wedi bod yn gweithio gyda’r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ac, eto, mae arferion da yn cael eu rhannu yna ac rŷm ni’n gallu camu nôl. Maen nhw’n cynnal y peth. Mae’r sector bwyd a diod yn arbennig wedi ymateb yn aruthrol o bositif i’r sialens a’r cyfle o ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg yn eu busnesau.	It’s also happening in the private sector. We’ve been working with the Federation of Small Businesses over the past few years and, again, good practice is being shared there, and we can step back. They are sustaining that themselves.  The food and drink sector particularly has responded exceptionally positively to this challenge and the opportunity of using the Welsh language in their businesses.
[43] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch am hynny. Jest i symud ymlaen nawr, mae Dai Lloyd eisiau gofyn cwestiynau ynglŷn â chyfleoedd i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg.	Bethan Jenkins: Thank you for that. Just moving on, I think that Dai Lloyd wants to ask questions about opportunities to use Welsh.
[44] Dai Lloyd: Diolch yn fawr. A allaf i eich llongyfarch chi ar yr adroddiad bendigedig yma yn y lle cyntaf? Swmpus, lot o luniau, ysgrifen fawr, yn ddeniadol iawn—mae’n eich cadw chi yn hapus am oriau maith.	Dai Lloyd: Thank you very much. May I begin by congratulating you on this excellent report? There are a great many photos, large text and lovely pictures to keep you entertained for hours.
[45] Fel cefndir, yn naturiol, rwyf i’n un o’r bobl ffodus yma a gafodd ei eni a’i fagu mewn rhan o Gymru lle nad oedd dim rhaid i fi wybod dim byd am yr iaith Saesneg nes oeddwn i’n saith mlwydd oed. Felly, rwyf wedi treulio fy mywyd ers hynny—yr ychydig o flynyddoedd ers hynny—yn adeiladu ar y cynsail cadarn yna. Felly, rwy’n dod at yr adroddiad yma fel rhywun sydd yn defnyddio gwasanaethau Cymraeg. Ac wrth gwrs, yn adeiladu ar ein hansicrwydd naturiol ni fel siaradwyr Cymraeg—rydym ni’n tueddu i fod yn swil ac yn fewnblyg ac yn ddiymhongar a gydag ansicrwydd yn llamu drwy ein gwythiennau ni i gyd, yn naturiol—	But as a background, I’m one of those fortunate people who was born and brought up in a part of Wales where I didn’t have to know anything about the English language until I was seven years of age. So, I’ve spent my life since then—those very few years since then—building on that very firm foundation. So, I’ll come to this report as someone who uses Welsh language services. And, building on our natural uncertainty as Welsh speakers—we do tend to be shy and introverted and very modest, with uncertainty flowing through our veins—
[46] Bethan Jenkins: [Anghlywadwy.]	Bethan Jenkins: [Inaudible.]
[47] Dai Lloyd: Oes, yn hollol. Dyna pam rydw i’n defnyddio fy hun fel enghraifft o hynny.	Dai Lloyd: Of course. That’s why I use myself as an example of that.
[48] Felly, mae fy mhwynt sylfaenol ynglŷn â darparu gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg ydy: dylai fe fod ar gael—hynny yw, heb orfod gofyn amdano fe, heb wneud ffỳs amdano fe. Buaswn i’n cerdded i mewn i ble bynnag swyddfa a buaswn i’n disgwyl gweld y daflen yna yn Gymraeg heb i mi orfod gwneud ffỳs, achos nid yw pobl, fel y cyfryw—nôl i’r swildod naturiol yna—ddim yn mynd i wneud ffỳs. Os oes rhaid i chi wneud rhyw weithred arbennig i gael gafael yn y gwasanaeth yn y Gymraeg, nid ydy pobl, siaradwyr Cymraeg, ddim yn mynd i’w wneud e. Mae hynny’n gwyro'r niferoedd sy’n defnyddio gwasanaethau Cymraeg, os nad ydy’r ddarpariaeth ar gael yn naturiol. Dyna’r pwynt sylfaenol yr oeddwn i eisiau ei wneud, achos nid ydym ni’n licio gwneud ffỳs, a finnau yn bennaf ar hynny—nid ydw i’n licio gwneud ffỳs.	But my fundamental point about the provision of Welsh-medium services is that it should be available without having to ask for it—without having to make a fuss about it. If I were to walk into any kind of office, I would expect to see a particular leaflet in the Welsh language without having to make a fuss, because people—going back to that natural shyness—they’re not going to make a fuss. If you have to make a particular request to ask for a service through the medium of Welsh, then Welsh speakers aren’t going to do that. So, that would affect the number of people who use Welsh-medium services, if the service isn’t available naturally. That’s the fundamental point that I wanted to make, because we don’t like to make a fuss, and I particularly don’t like to make a fuss.
[49] Mae’n rhaid i bethau fod yn naturiol, ac yn weledol naturiol, megis rhain—y cortyn gwddf yma; yn fwy na bathodyn, achos mae’n rhaid i chi graffu yn agos iawn ar eu lapel nhw i’w weld. Mae’n gallu mynd â chi mewn i amgylchiadau ychydig bach yn anodd—	Things have to happen naturally, and have to be very visible, such as these lanyards. It’s more than a badge, because you do have to look very closely at someone’s lapel to see a badge, and that can take you onto quite dangerous ground—
[50] Bethan Jenkins: Ocê, Dai. Nid ydym ni eisiau mynd yna heddiw.	Bethan Jenkins: Okay, Dai, we don’t want to go there today.
[51] Dai Lloyd: Cortyn gwddf yw’r ateb yn lle bathodynnau bach, buaswn i’n ei ddweud.	Dai Lloyd: But a lanyard is the answer, rather than those very small badges, I would say.
[52] Bu fy mab i allan yn yr Almaen, ac roedd yn rhaid iddo weithio wyneb yn wyneb efo Almaenwyr fel rhan o’r gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Roedd gyda fe arholiadau TGAU yn Almaeneg wedi’u pasio, achos mae’n llawer haws, fel rŷch chi’n gwybod, i ddysgu trydedd a phedwaredd iaith pan rydych chi’n dechrau efo dwy. Ond wrth gwrs, fel rhan o’r swydd yma, roedd e’n cael addysg lafar Almaeneg un-i-un am ddim yn y cwmni yma, achos dyna oedd y disgwyl: roedd e’n mynd i siarad efo pobl yn yr Almaen yn Almaeneg. Nid oedd yn broblem gyda nhw ei gyflogi fe, ac roedden nhw’n darparu cyrsiau gloywi iaith o’r diwrnod cyntaf—dyna oedd y disgwyl, heb orfod gofyn. Dyna beth rydym ni’n sôn amdani: cyfleoedd i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg yn naturiol a hefyd i helpu’r sawl sydd angen gwella eu sgiliau. Mae yna lot o bethau i’w gwneud.	My son was out in Germany and had to work face to face with Germans as part of the public service. He had GCSE exams in German that he passed, because it’s much easier to learn a third or a fourth language when you’ve started with two. But as part of this job, he received an education in oral German, one to one, for nothing, within that company, because that was the expectation—that he would be able to speak to people in Germany in German. They had no problem with employing him, and they provided language improvement courses from the very first day, without having to ask. That’s what I’m talking about here: opportunities to use the Welsh language naturally, and to help those who want to improve their skills. There are a great many things to do.
[53] Mae yna ragor o gwestiynau i ddilyn, ond cawn ni ddechrau gyda nhw.	I do have more questions to follow, but we’ll start with that.
[54] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch, Dai.	Bethan Jenkins: Thanks, Dai.
[55] Ms Huws: Rwy’n credu fy mod i’n cytuno â phob gair a ddywedodd yr Aelod. A gaf i ddechrau gyda’r hyn yr oeddech chi’n ei ddweud o ran cynnig rhagweithiol? Mae’r adroddiad yma, ac adroddiadau eraill yr ydym ni wedi’u cyhoeddi, megis yr ymholiad ar iechyd a gofal sylfaenol, yn pwysleisio pwysigrwydd y cynnig, fel nad yw pobl yn gorfod mynd i edrych neu holi neu erfyn eu bod nhw’n cael gwasanaeth trwy gyfrwng Cymraeg. Rwy’n credu mai hynny yw asgwrn cefn ein gwaith ni—sut mae gwneud y cynnig rhagweithiol yna yn gynnig real wedyn.	Ms Huws: Well, I think I’d agree with every word the Member said. Can I start with what you said in terms of a proactive offer? Now, this report, and other reports that we’ve published, such as our inquiry into health and primary care, does emphasise the importance of the offer, the active offer—that people shouldn’t have to go and seek these services and ask for them and possibly have to make ardent requests for them. I think that’s the backbone of our work—how you make that active offer a real offer.
[56] Bethan Jenkins: A oes yna enghreifftiau o arfer da, wedyn, os ydych chi’n mynd i mewn i swyddfa—eich bod chi’n eu gweld yn sicr ac yn glir?	Bethan Jenkins: Are there examples of good practice, if you go into an office—that you can see it very clearly?
[57] Ms Huws: Rwy’n credu eich bod chi wedi cyfeirio yn y lle cyntaf at y cortyn gwddf, ac mae amryw ohonoch chi yn gwisgo’r cortyn gwddf rownd y bwrdd yma. Mae hynny’n rhoi neges glir. Wrth gwrs, mae gosod rhywbeth ar ddesg yn dweud bod yna wasanaeth dwyieithog ar gael, ac mae hynny yn help. Mae cael y negeseuon yna yn glir i’r defnyddwyr yn holl, hollbwysig.	Ms Huws: I think you referred initially to the lanyard, and I see that a number of you around the table are wearing that lanyard. That gives a clear message. Of course, placing something on the desk saying that there is a bilingual service available is also helpful. Getting those messages across clearly to service users is crucially important.
[58] Yr ail beth sy’n bwysig yw, wedi gwneud y cynnig, sicrhau bod yna ddarpariaeth y tu ôl i’r cynnig. Mae Gwenith wedi cyfeirio yn benodol at sefyllfaoedd lle mae’r cynnig yna, ond nid yw’r realiti ddim yna—bod y gwasanaeth sy’n cael ei gynnig ddim yn un gwirioneddol o ran y Gymraeg. Felly, mae’r cynnig rhagweithiol—. Mae cyd-gomisiynwyr iaith mewn gwledydd eraill, megis Canada, wedi gwneud cymaint o waith ar y maes yma o ran sut mae gwneud y cynnig yna a’i wneud yn gynnig rhwydd, a hwyluso pobl. Ac mae hynny yn bwysig iawn, iawn.	The second thing that is important, of course, is that, having made that offer, you ensure that the provision is available to back that up. Gwenith has referred specifically to situations where the offer is made, but the reality is that that isn’t available in terms of the service provided, and that service isn’t truly available through the medium of Welsh. So, the active offer—. Language commissioners in other nations, such as Canada, have done so much work in this area in terms of how you make that active offer and facilitate the use of language for people. And that’s extremely important.
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[59] A gaf i fynd nôl at yr ail beth y gwnaethoch ei godi ynglŷn â’r gweithlu a hwyluso’r Gymraeg o fewn y gweithlu? Rwy’n credu bod amryw o bethau sydd o ddiddordeb i fi. Rwyf yn credu bod y ffordd rydym yn dysgu Cymraeg o fewn yr ysgolion—ac mae hynny yn destun trafod ar hyn o bryd—mor bwysig. Mae’n rhaid i ni roi sgiliau ieithyddol y mae pobl ifanc yn gallu eu defnyddio yn y gweithle, a’u bod nhw’n deall pam maen nhw’n dysgu’r Gymraeg—bod hynny yn mynd i’w galluogi nhw i fod yn weithiwr dwyieithog. Rwy’n credu bod hynny yn bwysig. Mae’n bwysig, bwysig bod cyflogwyr, fel rydym wedi ei drafod yn barod, yn cydnabod hynny fel sgìl gwaith—ei fod yn gymhwyster i weithio mewn gwahanol sefyllfaoedd. A lle bod angen, rwy’n credu fod yna sialens fawr i’r ganolfan dysgu Cymraeg newydd i ddarparu cyrsiau hyfforddiant yn y gweithle sydd yn galluogi pobl sydd efallai ddim cweit yn cyrraedd yna—ddim cweit â’r sgiliau yn ddigon cryf—i fod yn gallu gweithio trwy’r Gymraeg mewn ffordd sydd yn gwneud sense. Rwy’n credu bod yna haenau o ran y gweithlu, ond buaswn i yn dweud bod addysg sylfaenol yn ein hysgolion ni, ac addysg bellach, yn holl, hollbwysig. Mae yna gymaint o gyrsiau galwedigaethol. Rwy’n mynd o fan hyn i Nantgarw yn nes ymlaen heddiw i siarad ynglŷn â chymwysterau yn y maes chwaraeon a hamdden ac, yn yr un modd, gofal. Mae’n bwysig bod addysg bellach yn darparu y Gymraeg fel sgìl yn y pecyn yna, ac wedyn mae’r cyfrifoldeb yn y gweithle i sicrhau bod y cymwysterau ar gael.	Can I return to the second point that you raised on the workforce and encouraging and facilitating the learning of Welsh within the workforce? I think that there are a number of things that would be of interest to me. I do think that the way that we teach Welsh within schools—and that’s a hot topic at the moment—is so important. We do have to provide language skills for young people that they can use in the workplace, and that they understand why they’re learning Welsh—that that will enable them to be a bilingual worker or member of staff. I think that’s important. It’s extremely important that employers, as we’ve already discussed, do recognise that as a workplace skill—that it is a qualification to work in various circumstances and situations. And, where the need arises, I do think that there is a huge challenge for the new Welsh language learning centre to provide training courses in the workplace that do enable people who perhaps don’t quite have the skills yet—or where their skills aren’t quite strong enough yet—to be able to work through the medium of Welsh in a way that makes sense to them. So, I think that there are layers or strata in terms of the workforce, but I would say that basic education in our schools is important. Further education is crucially important. There are so many vocational courses available. I will be going from here to Nantgarw later on today to talk about qualifications in terms of sport and leisure, and the same is true of care. It’s extremely important that FE provides the Welsh language as a skill within that package of skills, and then there is a responsibility within the workplace to ensure that those opportunities and qualifications are available.
[60] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym yn mynd i symud ymlaen nawr at Iaith Gwaith. Dawn.	Bethan Jenkins: We’re going to move on now to Iaith Gwaith. Dawn.
[61] Dawn Bowden: Before I start on that, I just wanted to follow a little bit up on Dai’s line of questioning. I know, for instance, in the area that I represent, that Welsh speakers represent less than 10 per cent of the community, and the public sector is the biggest employer in that area. We’re looking primarily at public service bodies here. We clearly can’t exclude 90 per cent of the population from employment in those places, so it is about going back to the point you’re making about how we equip people with the skills at a very early age to be at the front face of a public organisation. I was quite horrified at some of the stories that you printed in your report about the experience of people on receptions, and so on. I’d welcome a little bit more from you about how you think—particularly in those predominantly English-speaking areas—we can address this, because I think that is a huge task in those areas to try to address the issue with 90 per cent of the population. So, perhaps we can come back to that.
[62] But also, I’d like some clarification on the current activities that you’re undertaking to promote and distribute Iaith Gwaith materials. I’m assuming there must be a cost implication to that. Is that a barrier to you being able to get out and distribute that further?
[63] And then, perhaps, a bit more information about your own views about why public organisations aren’t using the resources available to signpost. Again, you know, quite disturbing figures—76 per cent of receptions managed by county councils and 78 per cent of NHS receptions didn’t have that service available, and so on. So, some thoughts around that, really.
[64] Ms Huws: Reit. Diolch yn fawr iawn, iawn am y cwestiwn. A gaf i ddechrau gydag edrych ar ymbweru’r gweithiwr a pharatoi at weithwyr y dyfodol? A gaf i ddweud eto fy mod i’n credu bod ein system addysg ni yn holl, hollbwysig? Rŷch chi’n sôn am y sefyllfa yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru, lle mae 90 y cant o’r boblogaeth yn ddi-Gymraeg. Ond os edrychwn ni ar y genhedlaeth ifanc, mae nifer sylweddol o’r bobl ifanc hynny’n mynd drwy system addysg sydd yn rhoi rhywfaint o sgiliau ieithyddol iddyn nhw o ran y Gymraeg. Mae angen iddyn nhw gael eu dysgu mewn ffordd sydd yn eu galluogi nhw i ddefnyddio’r sgìl yna yn y gweithle, wedyn.	Ms Huws: Thank you very much for that question. May I start in looking at empowering the employee and preparing the workforce of the future? May I say once again that I do think that our education system is crucially important? You mention the situation in north-east Wales, where 90 per cent of the population are non-Welsh speaking. But if we look at the younger generation, a large proportion of those young people are going through an education system that will give them some language skills in terms of the Welsh language. They need to be taught in a way that enables them to use that skill in the workplace.
[65] Mae addysg bellach yn holl, hollbwysig fan hyn hefyd. Gyda’n cyrsiau galwedigaethol, mi ddylem ni fod yn sicrhau bod sgiliau cyfathrebu cyffredinol yn y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg yn rhan ganolog o’r ddarpariaeth o fewn addysg bellach ac addysg uwch. Pan rŷch chi’n sôn am y sector cyhoeddus, wrth gwrs, rŷm ni’n dibynnu ar addysg bellach i greu’r gweithwyr hynny. Dyna lle mae’ch gofalwyr chi’n dod o, dyna lle mae’r bobl sy’n gweithio ar y derbynfeydd yn dod o; maen nhw’n dod drwy’r system yna, ac rwy’n i’n credu bod angen inni edrych ar beth mae addysg bellach yn ei wneud.	Further education is crucially important here as well. With our vocational courses, we should be ensuring that general communication skills through the medium of Welsh and English are a central part of provision within FE and HE. When you talk about the public sector, of course, we are reliant on FE to create that workforce. That’s where your carers come from, that’s where the reception workers come from; they come through that education system, and I think we need to look at what FE is doing.
[66] Roeddech chi hefyd wedi sôn am y rhai hynny sydd yn y gweithlu’n barod. Mae yna esiamplau yn eich ardal chi o’r heddlu yn ymbweru eu gweithwyr i fod yn ddefnyddwyr o’r Gymraeg, ac yn parchu hynny yn y gweithle. Rwy’n credu mai hynny yw’r sialens fawr—i weithio gyda chyflogwyr i sicrhau eu bod nhw’n gweld hwn fel sgìl a’u bod nhw, fel rŷm ni’n ei ddweud, yn soffistigedig yn y ffordd maen nhw’n diffinio’r sgìl yna—beth yw’r lefel sydd eisiau ar unigolyn ar dderbynfa? A sicrhau, wedyn, bod y person yna, os nad ydyn nhw’n cyrraedd y nod yna, yn cael eu galluogi i gyrraedd y nod yna. Mae hynny’n rhoi sgiliau ychwanegol i’r gweithiwr ac mae’n rhoi profiad gwell i’r defnyddiwr hefyd.	You also mentioned those people already in the workforce. There are examples in your area of the police force empowering their staff to be Welsh language users, and respecting that in the workplace. I think that is the major challenge—to work with employers to ensure that they see this as a skill and that, as I said, they are sophisticated in the way they define that skill. What level is necessary for an individual working on the reception, for example? And then ensure that that individual, if they don’t reach that particular level, is empowered to reach that level. That provides additional skills to that employee and it gives a better user experience for the service user.
[67] Iaith Gwaith: rŷm ni yn dosbarthu’r cortynnau gwddf, y bathodynnau a’r deunyddiau hynny. Ydy, mae’n ddrud, ond rwy’n credu ei fod yn bwysig, bwysig, oherwydd maen nhw wedi cydio; maen nhw yn gweithio. Mi fyddwn ni’n parhau tra’n bod ni’n gallu i ddosbarthu’r deunyddiau yna. Mae’n cymryd rhai miloedd allan o’n cyllideb ni’n flynyddol—rhai miloedd sylweddol allan o’n cyllideb ni—ond eto, mae’n rhywbeth rŷm ni’n gallu cynnig i’r cyflogwr ac i’r man gwaith.	Iaith Gwaith: We do distribute the lanyards, the badges and all those materials. Yes, it’s expensive, but I think it’s extremely important, because they have taken effect; they have worked. We will continue to distribute that material while we can. It does take some thousands of pounds out of our budget annually—a substantial figure from our budget—but again, it is something that we can offer employees and the workplace.
[68] Bethan Jenkins: A allaf jest ofyn yn fras, cyn ichi barhau—? Roeddech chi’n sôn am ardal Dawn Bowden, ond roeddech chi’n sôn am ogledd Cymru. A ydych chi’n sôn am dde Cymru hefyd?	Bethan Jenkins: Can I just ask, before you continue—? You talked about Dawn Bowden’s region, but you were actually talking about north Wales. Are you talking about south Wales too there?
[69] Ms Huws: Ie.	Ms Huws: Yes.
[70] Bethan Jenkins: Ocê. Jest i gadarnhau mai nid dim ond yr heddlu—	Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Just to confirm that you’re not just talking about the police—
[71] Dawn Bowden: I was going to correct you at the end. My colleague here represents there, obviously, as well.
[72] Bethan Jenkins: Ie, ond dim ond ar gyfer y record, roeddwn i jest eisiau cadarnhau eich bod yn sôn am y lle priodol yng nghyd-destun y cwestiwn.	Bethan Jenkins: Yes, but just for the record, I wanted to confirm that you were talking about the appropriate area in the context of the question.
[73] Ms Huws: Ydyn. Gogledd-ddwyrain, de-ddwyrain, yr un yw’r sialensiau rŷm ni’n eu gweld. Caerdydd, Abertawe—yr un yw’r sialensiau ar draws Cymru.	Ms Huws: Yes. North-east or south-east, the challenges are the same. Cardiff, Swansea—the challenges are the same across Wales.
[74] Iaith Gwaith: O ran profiadau—	Iaith Gwaith: in terms of experiences—
[75] Ms Price: Yn sicr, rwy’n meddwl mai’r profiad go iawn, neu’r diffyg profiad go iawn, ydy un o’r pethau sydd yn yr adroddiad efo’r Iaith Gwaith, lle mae rhywun wedi cael cyfarwyddyd o rywle i osod yr arwyddion i fyny ond bod y staff ddim yn gallu defnyddio’r Gymraeg. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod hynny’n ymwneud, o anghenraid, â diffyg sgìl  y staff; mae’n fwy i wneud efo pwy roddodd y cyfarwyddyd i osod yr arwyddion, neu i’w gwisgo nhw, heb sicrhau bod y gallu yno i ddarparu. Felly, mae angen rhyw fath o gynllunio gwasanaeth y tu ôl i’r dderbynfa hefyd. Ac mae yna gyfrifoldeb rhywle yn fanna i sicrhau bod staff sydd ar y rheng flaen yn cael eu rhoi mewn sefyllfa briodol ac nad ydyn nhw’n cael eu rhoi mewn sefyllfa annheg, mewn ffordd, a rhoi’r arwydd yno heb fod y gallu yno i’w ddefnyddio.	Ms Price: Certainly, I think that the lack of real experience is one of the things that arises in the report on Iaith Gwaith, where someone has had a direction from somewhere to put the signs up, but that the staff then can’t use the Welsh language. I don’t think that that relates necessarily to the lack of skills amongst the staff; it’s more to do with who gave the direction to put up the signs, or to wear the lanyards, without ensuring that the ability was there to provide. Therefore, we need some kind of service planning behind the reception. And there is a responsibility somewhere there to ensure that staff who are on the front line are placed in an appropriate situation; that they’re not being put in an unfair situation, where the sign is up but the ability isn’t there to use the Welsh language.
[76] Yr unig sylw arall buaswn i’n ei wneud o ran sefyllfaoedd lle mae yna brinder sgiliau yw: os ydym ni’n edrych yn ôl ar gyfnod gweithredu cynlluniau iaith, a ydy dysgu Cymraeg yn y gweithle wedi addasu yn y cyfnod yna o’r cyfnod blaenorol, lle’r oedd o’n Gymraeg yn y gymuned? A oes yna ddigon o newid wedi bod i ddiwallu anghenion y gweithle? Mae’n anodd inni ddweud, oherwydd os ydych chi’n edrych ar yr adroddiad ar sgiliau, nid yw llawer o sefydliadau’n casglu data ar sgiliau, ac nid ydyn nhw’n cofnodi beth sydd ganddyn nhw. Felly, dyna pam rydym ni eisiau edrych yn ofalus ar yr ochr sgiliau’r gweithlu, er mwyn gallu deall beth ydy’r anghenion a’r problemau. Mae’n rhaid i sefydliadau gasglu gwybodaeth, cofnodi a chanfod ble mae’r problemau prinder.	The only other comment I would make in terms of situations where there is a lack of skills is: if we look back at the period of language schemes being implemented, has learning Welsh in the workplace been adapted in that period from the previous period, where it was Welsh in the community? Has there been sufficient change to meet the needs of the workforce? It is very difficult for us to say, because if you look at the report on skills, not many organisations gather data on skills, and they don’t record what they have. So, that’s why we need to look very carefully at the skills side of the workforce, in order to understand what the needs and the problems are. Organisations need to gather and record information and to find where the problems arise in terms of a deficiency.
[77] Bethan Jenkins: Dawn, a oeddech chi eisiau dod yn ôl yn fras?	Bethan Jenkins: Dawn, do you want to come back?
[78] Dawn Bowden: Just a quick follow up, because it’s really on the point that Dai Lloyd was making earlier on about his son’s experience in Germany, and apologies if I’ve missed it in the report, but do you have information on those employers, those public sector employers in particular, that offer any of those kind of services, that kind of Welsh language training, that will at least get people up to a point where they could have a basic conversation with somebody at reception level?
[79] Ms Price: O dan y drefn safonau, mae disgwyl iddyn nhw adrodd a chadw cofnod o’r union bwynt. Mae yna safonau ynglŷn â hyfforddi, a faint o staff sydd yn derbyn hyfforddiant, a pha fath, felly mi fydd disgwyliad i ddarparu’r data yna; mi fydd hynny’n help i ni. Mae hefyd yn ddisgwyliad o ran gofynion sgiliau recriwtio, a dyna’r math o beth nad oedd modd i ni gasglu o dan y drefn, achos roedd unrhyw adrodd o dan y cynllun iaith yn wirfoddol, ond mae disgwyl rŵan iddyn nhw gadw cofnodion a chyhoeddi rheini mewn adroddiad blynyddol, felly bydd o ar gael i’r cyhoedd ac i ninnau allu edrych arno a gweld beth ydy’r problemau a beth ydy’r patrymau.	Ms Price: Under the standards regime, there is an expectation for them to report and to keep a record of that exact point. There are standards in terms of training, and how many staff receive that training, and what kind of training they receive, so there will be an expectation to provide those data and that will be of help to us. There’s also an expectation in terms of skills requirements in recruitment, and that’s the kind of thing that we couldn’t gather in the past under the previous regime, because any kind of reporting was voluntary, but there’s now an expectation for them to keep a record and to publish that in an annual report, and so it will be available for the public and for us to look at to see what the problems and patterns are.
[80] Bethan Jenkins: Ocê. Lee, roeddech chi eisiau dod i mewn.	Bethan Jenkins: Lee, you wanted to come in there.
[81] Lee Waters: Ie, diolch.	Lee Waters: Yes, thank you.
[82] I was taken by your point about how you’re working with organisations to explain more clearly the level of Welsh that’s needed, and these blanket terms are often misleading, or unhelpful, for the reasons that you set out. You’re critical in your report about the number of jobs that are listed as ‘Welsh essential’, I wonder if you’ve done any labour market analysis about what level of skills there are to meet the posts that you think should be essential.
[83] Ms Huws: Yn gynharach eleni fe wnaethom ni gyhoeddi adroddiad pum mlynedd oedd yn tynnu at ei gilydd y data sydd ar gael o ran hyfedredd y Gymraeg mewn gwahanol sefyllfaoedd. Ar y cyfan, beth sydd ddim wedi digwydd—mae yna lot fawr o ddata allan yna—yw bod e’n cael ei weu at ei gilydd i gael y math yna o ddadansoddiad. Dyna pam rŷm ni’n gweld y safonau o ran adnabod sgiliau presennol y gweithlu a sgiliau dyfodol y gweithlu yn angenrheidiol fel cam pwysig ymlaen. Dyna’r math o ddata sydd ei eisiau ar lefel sefydliad, ar lefel rhanbarthol, ac ar lefel Cymraeg, a Chymreig hefyd. Rydw i’n credu bod yna sialens fawr gyda ni, er enghraifft, yn y sector iechyd, lle mae angen i ni gynllunio gweithlu y dyfodol. Mae angen inni gynllunio gweithlu sydd yn gallu cyfathrebu gyda phoblogaeth Cymru, ac nid ydw i’n credu ein bod ni’n defnyddio’r data sydd gyda ni o ran cynllunio’r gweithlu, bod y Llywodraeth ddim yn gwneud hynny, i osod targedau ar ein colegau, ar ein prifysgolion, o ran hyfforddiant. Felly, mae yna lot i’w wneud yn fan hyn. Mae yna angen inni symud ymlaen fesul sector, fesul sefydliad, a fesul ardal yng Nghymru hefyd.	Ms Huws: Earlier this year we published a five-year report that drew together the data that’s available in terms of Welsh language skills in various situations and, generally speaking, what hasn’t happened is—there’s a great deal of data out there—that it is drawn together to get that kind of analysis that you mentioned. That’s why we see standards in terms of identifying current workforce skills and future workforce skills as being so necessary as an important step forward. That’s the kind of data that’s required at an organisational level, at a regional level, and at a national Welsh level too. I do think there’s a huge challenge, for example, in the health sector, where we do need to plan the workforce of the future. We need to plan for a workforce that can communicate with the population of Wales, and I don’t think that we are using the data we currently have in terms of workforce planning, that the Government isn’t using those data, in order to set targets for our colleges and our universities in terms of training. So, there is a huge amount to be done here. We do need to make progress sector by sector, institution by institution, and area by area too.
[84] Lee Waters: Okay. Because I think there’s a danger, isn’t there, that, in the absence of evidence, we’ve got a policy driver to have more posts categorised as ‘Welsh essential’ or ‘Welsh desirable’, when there’s not the full confidence there that the labour market skills are there to provide those skills in the public sector. I know it’s dangerous to navigate by anecdote, but I’ve certainly been involved in many situations where I’ve advertised posts as ‘Welsh essential’ or ‘Welsh desirable’, and simply the quality of the candidates coming forward hasn’t been good enough to appoint. And I’m struck by the quote that you put in your report on page 63 about the health service, where you’re quoting an official saying there’s a
[85] ‘conflict between delivering a medical service to a required standard and offering a bilingual service.’
[86] And that’s certainly something that health boards will tell you. Especially in parts of Wales where Welsh is spoken the most, there’s a real difficulty with perception, so trying to attract staff in, and they feel that, because they don’t speak Welsh, they wouldn’t get the job in the health board, which is a barrier for recruiting the staff we have in the NHS. So, I think there is a danger, in the absence of that data, that we’re driving on one hand a policy direction of having more posts categorised as essential, when we can’t be confident that the skills within the workforce exist to fill those posts.
10:15
[87] Ms Huws: Rŷch chi yn twtsio ar sawl pwynt fanna sydd yn aruthrol o bwysig. Buaswn i’n dadlau bod lot fawr o’r data ar gael. Beth sydd ddim yn digwydd yw bod hynny’n cael ei ddefnyddio, ei dynnu at ei gilydd, a chael ei ddefnyddio fel sail i benderfyniadau polisi a phenderfyniadau cynllunio’r gweithlu. Pwy ddylai fod yn gwneud y gwaith yna? Buaswn i’n dweud bod yna amryw ohonom ni â chyfrifoldeb yn y datblygiad yna, ond buaswn i yn dweud bod yna rôl i Lywodraeth Cymru fan hyn, yn arbennig o ran meysydd megis iechyd, fel yr wyf newydd ddweud, i yrru, i gasglu’r data sydd ar gael, a defnyddio’r data yna mewn ffordd bositif i gynllunio’r gweithlu at y dyfodol.	Ms Huws: You’ve touched upon a number of points there that are hugely important. I would argue that much of the data is available. What doesn’t happen is that that is used, drawn together, and used as a foundation for policy decisions and workforce planning decisions. Who should be doing that work? I would say that a number of us have a responsibility in that regard, but I would also say that there is a role for the Welsh Government here, particularly in areas such as health, as I’ve just mentioned, in order to drive and gather the data that are available, and to use those data in a positive way to plan the future workforce.
Rŷch chi hefyd wedi codi cwestiwn yr wyf i wedi ei godi ynglŷn ag ansawdd cynnyrch ein system addysg ni, ac rwy’n credu bod y trafodaethau yn sgil Donaldson ac adroddiad Donaldson yn aruthrol o bwysig, sef ein bod ni’n sicrhau bod y sgiliau o ran y Gymraeg yr ŷm ni’n eu rhoi i bobl ifanc yn sgiliau y gallan nhw eu defnyddio yn y gweithle. Os nad ŷch chi mewn sefyllfa lle mae gyda ni bobl yn dod trwodd gyda’r sgiliau angenrheidiol yna, mae yna rywbeth yn bod ar y system sydd yn eu paratoi nhw. Ac fe fydd Donaldson—ac rwy’n gobeithio y bydd y pwyllgor yma’n craffu ar beth o’r hyn y mae Donaldson yn ei gyflwyno o ran y Gymraeg fel sgìl y gallwch chi ei defnyddio yn y gweithle, a bod hynny yn digwydd.	You’ve also raised this question, which is a question that I myself have raised, on the quality of the output of our education system, and I think the discussions following Donaldson, and the Donaldson report, are hugely important, and we do need to ensure that the Welsh language skills that we provide to young people are skills that they can effectively use in the workplace. If you are not in a situation where we have people coming through with the necessary skills, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the system that prepares those young people. And Donaldson—and I hope that this committee will scrutinise some of what Donaldson is introducing in terms of the Welsh language as a skill that you can use in the workplace, and that should happen.
[88] Mi allwn i sôn hefyd am rôl awdurdodau lleol fan hyn hefyd, o ran eu cynlluniau addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Dyna oedd hanfod cynlluniau addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, sef bod awdurdod lleol yn adnabod beth oedd ei angen mewn ardal ac yn cynllunio ar gyfer hynny. Mae’n dair blynedd nawr oddi ar inni gael y cynlluniau yna; mae yna gwestiynau sylfaenol ynglŷn â pha mor effeithiol y maen nhw wedi bod o ran creu’r ffrwd yna o bobl ifanc, ac nid mor ifanc, y gallwch chi fod yn cyflogi. So, mae yna sawl elfen fan hyn o ran cynllunio’r gweithlu, ac wedyn mae’r cwestiwn yn codi ynglŷn â, phan fo’r person yna’n cyrraedd y gwaith, beth yw rôl y cyflogwr o ran sicrhau bod eu sgiliau nhw ar y lefel, os nad ydyn nhw’n cyrraedd y lefel, ac mae yna waith ar hynny i’w wneud. Fel y dywedodd Gwenith, mae Cymraeg i oedolion wedi bod yn Gymraeg i oedolion ar y cyfan yn y gymuned, yn hytrach na phwysleisio anghenion y gweithle.	I could also talk about the role of local authorities here, in terms of their Welsh in education plans. It was the foundation of Welsh in education plans that the local authorities should identify the needs in a particular area and should plan for those needs. It’s three years now since those plans were put in place, and there are fundamental questions as to how effective they’ve been in terms of creating that stream of young people, and not so young, that you could employ. So, there are a number of elements here in terms of workforce planning, and then the question arises, when that individual actually is employed, of what is the role of the employer in terms of ensuring that their skills are at a sufficient level, or how they get to a sufficient level if they are not already there. As Gwenith said, Welsh for adults has mainly focused on Welsh in the community, rather than emphasising the needs of the workplace.
[89] So, mae yna bethau sydd angen eu gwneud, ond mae yna bethau sy’n digwydd sydd ddim yn digon da, buaswn i’n dweud, ar hyn o bryd.	So, there are things that need to be done, but there are also things that are already happening that aren’t being done well enough at the moment, I would say.
[90] Lee Waters: I think those are important points that we need to pick up when we do our inquiry and make representations to the Ministers around workforce planning. But, with respect, those are issues for the future. In terms of the recruitment crisis now, you’re pressuring organisations now to increase the number of ‘Welsh essential’ posts, and my question is: are we confident that the skills are there to meet those now?
Ms Price: A bod yn deg, rwy’n meddwl ein bod ni wedi asesu beth sy’n digwydd, ac mae’r adroddiad yn dweud beth sy’n digwydd. Felly, er enghraifft, mae’r sector iechyd yn recriwtio ac wedi recriwtio—yn y cyfnod yr oeddem ni’n edrych ar rai swyddi lle oedd yna gyswllt hefo’r cyhoedd—1 y cant, er enghraifft, yn gofyn am y Gymraeg fel sgìl hanfodol yn y cyfnod. Rwy’n meddwl mai beth yr ydym ni’n ei bwysleisio ydy’r angen i asesu, yr angen i gofnodi, faint o staff yn y gweithlu sydd yn medru, yr angen i sefydliad wybod beth sydd ganddyn nhw, ac iddyn nhw asesu beth maen nhw ei angen. So, nid wyf yn credu bod ni yn dweud, ‘Mae angen ichi osod y gofyniad hwn ar 90 y cant o’ch swyddi’, neu beth bynnag, ond rydym ni yn meddwl bod yna ddiffyg nad ydyn nhw’n gwybod faint o sgiliau dwyieithog sydd yn y gweithle, nid oes ganddyn nhw gofnod, ac nid ydyn nhw’n recriwtio. Mi welsom ni un enghraifft lle yr oedden nhw’n mynd allan o’u ffordd mewn un achos i ddweud nad oedden nhw eisiau sgiliau yn y Gymraeg. Felly, rwy’n meddwl y byddai pethau’n well. Mae yna rai enghreifftiau o waith profi yn y fan hyn lle yr oedd yna swyddogion dwyieithog, ond nid oedden nhw’n gwybod i ddefnyddio eu sgiliau yn y gwaith. Felly, mae yna ddiffyg cynllunio cyffredinol mewn sefydliadau ynglŷn â’r gweithle a defnyddio’r sgiliau sydd yno.	Ms Price: To be fair, I think that we’ve assessed what’s happening, and the report states what’s happening. So, for example, the health sector is recruiting or has recruited—in the period that we were looking at for some posts where there was a link with the public—1 per cent, asking for Welsh as an essential skill in that period. So, I think what we’re emphasising is the need to assess and to record how many staff in the workforce can speak Welsh, the need for the employer to know what skills they have, and for them to assess what they need. So, I don’t think we’re saying, ‘You need to set this requirement for 90 per cent of your posts’, or whatever, but we do think that there is a deficiency in that they don’t know what bilingual skills they have in their workforce, they don’t have a record, and they’re not recruiting. We saw one example where they went out of their way in one case to say that they didn’t want Welsh language skills. So, I think that things could be done better. There are examples of sampling work here where there were bilingual officials, but they didn’t know to use their skills in the workplace. So, there’s a lack of general planning within organisations in terms of the workforce and using the skills that already exist.
[91] Ond rwy’n derbyn y pwynt o ran y diffyg. Mae’r adroddiad pum mlynedd yn ceisio edrych ar rai agweddau, ac mae yna waith i’w wneud, a dyna pam yr ydym ni wedi ei ddewis o fel maes i ganolbwyntio arno fo.	But I accept the point in terms of the deficiency. The five-year report is trying to look at some aspects of that, and there is work to be done, and that’s why we’ve chosen it as an area to focus on.
[92] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr. Mae Suzy nawr yn mynd i ofyn am sgiliau, gan ein bod ni ar y pwnc yn barod.	Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much. Suzy is going to move on to skills, as we are already on that issue.
[93] Suzy Davies: Ie, jest un clou, really, yn mynd nôl at ddeunyddiau ‘Iaith Gwaith’ a’r berthynas rhwng dysgwyr y tu fewn i unrhyw sefydliad a defnyddwyr gwasanaeth y tu fewn i’r sefydliad. Nid wyf yn siŵr os yw cortyn gwddw ‘dysgwyr’ ar gael fel rhan o Iaith Gwaith o gwbl. Gallaf i ddweud fod y bobl sy’n gwisgo lanyards yma yn y Cynulliad, maen nhw’n cael profiad arbennig o dda o ran y rhai sy’n fodlon siarad â nhw yn y Gymraeg, a hynny heb ofn. Felly, nid oes ofn o gwbl, ond anogaeth. Roeddwn jest yn becso, os ydych chi’n sôn am newid diwylliant y tu fewn i sefydliadau, sut allwch chi fynd heibio’r ofn o siarad Cymraeg sydd gan y rhai nad ydynt yn hyderus, a sut mae’r rhai sy’n defnyddio’r gwasanaeth yn gallu helpu’r dysgwyr y tu fewn i’r sefydliad fod yn fwy hyderus a gwella ansawdd dros amser? A ydych chi wedi dod o hyd i sefyllfa lle mae bod yn ddysgwr wedi bod yn broblem neu wedi bod yn gyfle?	Suzy Davies: Yes, just a quick question, really, returning to the ‘Iaith Gwaith’ materials and the relationship between Welsh learners within any organisation and service users within the organisation. I don’t know if the ‘dysgwyr’ Welsh learners’ lanyard is available as part of Iaith Gwaith. I can tell you that people who wear these lanyards in the Assembly get a very positive experience from those who are willing to communicate with them through the medium of Welsh. There is no fear, but there is encouragement. I was just wondering, if you are talking about changing culture within organisations, how do you get past that fear of communicating through the medium of Welsh among those who aren’t particularly confident, and how can service users actually assist learners within an organisation to be more confident and to improve the quality of their Welsh over time? Have you identified any situations where being a learner has been a problem or has been an opportunity, indeed?
[94] Ms Price: Wel, rydym ni wedi rhoi ein hunain yn esgidiau’r defnyddiwr, ac rwy’n meddwl ei bod yn bwysig inni, fel sefydliad, gofio ein cenhadaeth, ac ein bod ni yma i sicrhau nad yw triniaeth yn llai ffafriol. Mae’r profiad rydym ni wedi’i gael o’r gwaith profi yn rhoi’r ffeithiau a’r ffigurau i chi am beth ydy’r profiad. Wrth edrych ar ail ran yr adroddiad, lle rydym ni’n edrych ar ansawdd, mae rhai enghreifftiau yna lle, efallai, nad yw pethau wedi mynd cystal â’r hyn y byddai rhywun yn ei ddymuno oherwydd ansicrwydd ynglŷn â defnyddio’r Gymraeg, neu ddiffyg hyder ar ochr y swyddog.	Ms Price: Well, we have placed ourselves in the shoes of the users, and I think it’s important for us as an organisation to remember our mission, and that we are here to ensure that there aren’t less favourable experiences for Welsh language speakers. We can give you figures for what the user experience is. Looking at the second part of the report, where we look at quality, there are some examples there where, perhaps, things haven’t gone quite as well as one would wish because of uncertainty in terms of using the Welsh language or a lack of confidence on the side of the official.
[95] Bethan Jenkins: Byddwn yn dod at ansawdd cyn hir.	Bethan Jenkins: We’ll come to quality soon.
[96] Suzy Davies: Jest cwestiwn clou oedd gen i, actually.	Suzy Davies: It was just a quick question, actually.
[97] Ms Price: Dyna fo. Iawn.	Ms Price: Okay, that’s fine.
[98] Ms Huws: Yn ein cyswllt ni gyda chyflogwyr, rwy’n credu ein bod yn clywed yn ddyddiol am esiamplau da o fewn sefydliadau lle mae yna glwb cinio, mae yna fore coffi, lle mae pobl yn gallu dod at ei gilydd a defnyddio’r Gymraeg. Felly, mae yna nifer fawr o esiamplau mas yna o fewn sefydliadau.	Ms Huws: In terms of our relationship with employers, I think that we, on a daily basis, hear about good examples within organisations where there is a lunch club or a coffee morning where people can come together and use the Welsh language. So, there are many examples out there within organisations.
[99] Suzy Davies: Y bobl y tu fewn i’r sefydliad yw’r rheini. Ond y berthynas gyda’r rhai y tu fas i’r sefydliad, rwy’n sôn amdano.	Suzy Davies: Those are people within the organisations, aren’t they? I was talking about the relationship with those outwith organisations.
[100] Ms Huws: A dweud y gwir, mewn rhai llefydd, mae clybiau Merched y Wawr yn mynd i mewn hefyd fel defnyddwyr i hwyluso trafodaethau. So, mae yna batrymau ar draws Cymru lle mae pobl yn datblygu ffyrdd o hwyluso defnyddio’r Gymraeg ac yn rhoi hyder i unigolion. Nid dyna oedd ffocws y gwaith yma; gosod ein hunain yn esgidiau’r defnyddwyr allanol roeddem ni, yn benodol. Ond mae hynny’n rhywbeth inni edrych arno, o bosib, yn y dyfodol.	Ms Huws: To be honest, in certain areas, Merched y Wawr groups go in as service users to facilitate that. So, there are patterns across Wales where people are developing ways of facilitating the use of the Welsh language and giving individuals confidence. That wasn’t the focus of this work because we were placing ourselves in the shoes of external service users more specifically. But that’s something that we could look at in the future.
[101] Suzy Davies: Wel, mae’n ddrwg gen i—rwy’n sôn am y bobl allanol yna, y bobl sy’n defnyddio’r gwasanaeth—er enghraifft, rhywun sy’n mynd at ddoctor neu rywun tebyg. Os yw rhywun yn y dderbynfa yn dysgu’r Gymraeg, ac mae’r bobl yr ochr arall i’r cownter yn siarad Cymraeg yn hyderus, sut y mae’r un yn gallu helpu’r llall gyda defnydd y Gymraeg?	Suzy Davies: Well, sorry—I’m talking about those external people here, those service users—for example, someone who goes to a doctor or someone like that. If there is someone in reception counter who is learning Welsh and the people on the other side of the counter speak Welsh confidently, how can the one help the other with the use of the Welsh language?
[102] Ms Huws: Rwy’n credu bod yna sialens yno inni gyd fel siaradwyr Cymraeg i ni beidio â throi i’r Saesneg—mae hi mor syml â hynny—a’n bod yn deall y profiad o fod yn ddysgwr, a’n bod yn rhoi hyder i rywun.	Ms Huws: Well, I think that there is a challenge there for all of us as Welsh speakers that we shouldn’t turn to English—it’s as simple as that—and that we should understand the experience of being a Welsh learner, and that we should give those people confidence.
[103] Suzy Davies: Ond dewis pwy yw hynny? Dyna oedd y cwestiwn. Diolch yn fawr.	Suzy Davies: But whose choice is that? That’s what the question involved. Thank you.
[104] Bethan Jenkins: Dai, a oes gennych chi gwestiwn ar sgiliau, gan ein bod ni ar sgiliau?	Bethan Jenkins: Dai, do you have a question on skills, given that we are on skills?
[105] Dai Lloyd: Oes, Gadeirydd.	Dai Lloyd: Yes, Chair.
[106] Bethan Jenkins: Go on. Glou, nawr.	Bethan Jenkins: Go on, then. Quickly now.
Dai Lloyd: Reit. Sori. Sgil, wrth gwrs—mae’n sgìl sy’n gallu cael ei ddysgu, onid ydyw, fel ffiseg, cemeg neu fywydeg—Cymraeg. So, mae’n sgil, elfen, y medrwch ei dysgu ac sydd yn ychwanegu at eich CV chi, yn nhermau chwilio am swydd. Yn dilyn y pwynt pwysig gan Lee, yn nhermau mae yna swyddi yn awr yng Nghymru sy’n gofyn am y gallu i siarad Cymraeg—i ateb y cwestiwn oesol yna, ‘Pam y dylid boddran dysgu Cymraeg?’, wel, mae yna jobs i’w cael, i fynd at ochr arall y peth. Ond, y pwynt sylfaenol ynglŷn â sgil—wedi inni gael hwnnw i mewn fel nodyn yn awr, taw sgìl yw’r gallu i siarad Cymraeg, fel y sgìl i chwarae pêl-droed neu rywbeth—yw y gallwch wastad gwella a gloywi iaith. Ac mae yna wahanol lefelau yn y dderbynfa ac i fod yn feddyg. Achos roeddwn i eisiau troi’r busnes sgìl yma, ac rydw i’n gwybod eich bod wedi gwneud arolwg o’r blaen ynglŷn â sut y mae’r iaith Gymraeg yn cael ei defnyddio o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd, er enghraifft, a phwysigrwydd y gallu i siarad Cymraeg efo chlaf yn ei famiaith, achos y gwahaniaeth mewn rhuglder yr iaith. Hynny yw, rydym ni i gyd yn gwybod, pan fyddem yn dysgu ail iaith, nad ydym ni mor rhugl yn yr ail yna ag ydym ni yn ein hiaith gyntaf—y Saesneg i rai ohonom ni, y Gymraeg i eraill ohonom ni. Wedyn, pan ydych chi’n mynd i weld y meddyg, er enghraifft, neu’r nyrs, a gorfod defnyddio’ch ail iaith, mae yna ddigon o dystiolaeth rŵan nad ydych chi’n cael cystal dadansoddiad na chystal diagnosis yn ddigon cyflym achos nad ydych chi’n gallu esbonio’ch hunan mor rhugl yn eich ail iaith ag yr ydych chi yn eich iaith gyntaf. Dyna bwysigrwydd darpariaeth meddygon Cymraeg ei hiaith, nid jest yn ein hardaloedd mwyaf Cymreig ni, ond hefyd ym mhob ardal, achos mae yna siaradwyr Cymraeg ym mhob man—siaradwyr Cymraeg iaith gyntaf, yn enwedig ein plant ni a hefyd yr henoed yn gynyddol â dementia nawr sydd yn colli’r ail iaith maen nhw wedi ei dysgu. Hynny yw, maen nhw ond yn gallu siarad y Gymraeg. Wedyn mae yna hanfod, felly, i ateb y cwestiwn bod y sgìl o allu cyfathrebu yn y Gymraeg yn gwella safon y ddarpariaeth yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn yr amgylchiadau arbennig yna. Nid mater o hawliau yn unig ydyw, felly, ond mater o wella’r diagnosis.	Dai Lloyd: Right. Sorry. Well, in terms of skills, it is a skill that can be taught, isn’t it, such as physics, chemistry or life sciences—Welsh. So, it’s a skill, an element, that you can learn and that adds to your CV, in terms of seeking a job. Following the important point that Lee made, there are posts in Wales that do require the ability to speak Welsh, which answers the question, ‘Why bother learning Welsh?’ Well, there are jobs available. But the fundamental point in terms of a skill—after that has been noted now, that the ability to speak Welsh is a skill, akin to the ability to play football or something—is that you can always improve. There are different levels and elements in terms of working on reception or being a doctor. But I do want to turn this skills business, and I know that you have undertaken a survey before about how the Welsh language is used in the health service, for example, and the importance of the ability to speak Welsh with a patient in their mother tongue, because of the difference in fluency in the language. That is, we all know, when we learn a second language, that we’re not as fluent in the second language as we are in our first language. So, that might be English for some of us, and Welsh for others. When you go to see a doctor or a nurse, for example, and you have to use your second language, there is sufficient evidence now that you don’t receive a diagnosis quickly enough because you can’t explain yourself as fluently in your second language as you can in your first language. That’s the importance of the provision of Welsh-speaking doctors, not just in our more Welsh-speaking areas, but in all areas of Wales, because there are Welsh speakers in all places—first-language Welsh speakers, particularly young children, but also old people, increasingly, with dementia now who lose that second language that they’ve learned. That is, they can only speak Welsh. There is a requirement there, that the skill to be able to communicate through the medium of Welsh improves the provision in the health service in those particular circumstances. It’s not just a question of rights, but a question of improving the diagnosis.
[107] Bethan Jenkins: Rwy’n mynd i symud ymlaen yn syth at Jeremy, achos ei fod am siarad am faes iechyd.	Bethan Jenkins: I’m going to move on immediately to Jeremy, because he is also going to cover the health service.
[108] Jeremy Miles: Diolch. Rydych chi wedi sôn am iechyd, nawr, sawl gwaith, am resymau amlwg, ond rhowch asesiad i ni, os gwnewch chi, o beth ydych chi’n meddwl o’r polisi ‘Mwy na geiriau'. Siẁd mae hwnnw’n perfformio, efallai gan edrych ar y sector gofal cymdeithasol, yn benodol, os gwnewch chi?	Jeremy Miles: Thank you. You’ve mentioned health on a number of occasions for obvious reasons, but can you give us an assessment of what you think of the ‘More than Just words’ policy and how that’s performed, looking at the social care specifically?
[109] Ms Huws: Fel comisiynydd, mae’r sector iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol wedi bod yn un o’r meysydd rydym ni wedi canolbwyntio arnynt yn ystod y pum mlynedd diwethaf, fel ŷch chi’n dweud, am resymau amlwg. Ac fel ŷch chi wedi cyfeirio’n barod, nid hawl yn unig ydyw ond angen clinigol yn aml hefyd. O ran ‘Mwy na geiriau’, mae ‘Mwy na geiriau’ yn bodoli nawr ers tair neu bedair blynedd, yn mynd nôl i 2012. Strategaeth fframwaith oedd hi. Rwy’n credu, o ran y strategaeth fframwaith gyntaf, mi oedd y strategaeth yn bwysig o ran cydnabod yr angen. Pa mor effeithiol fu ‘Mwy na geiriau’ 1 o ran cyrraedd targedau penodol, nid wyf i’n gwybod. Rwy’n credu mai creu ymwybyddiaeth oedd prif lwyddiant ‘Mwy na geiriau’ 1.	Ms Huws: As commissioner, the health and social care sector has been one of the areas that we’ve focused on over the past five years, as you know, for fairly obvious reasons. As you’ve referred to already, it’s not a right, but a clinical need, very often, too. But, in terms of ‘More than just words’, ‘More than just words’ has existed now for three or four years, going back to 2012. It was a strategic framework. In terms of the first strategic framework, the strategy was important in terms of acknowledging and recognising the need. How effective ‘More than just words’ 1 has been in terms of hitting particular targets, well, I don’t know. I think it’s raised awareness—that was the main achievement of ‘More than just words’ 1.
[110] Yn dilyn cyhoeddi ein hadroddiad ymholiad iechyd ni yn 2014, fe gawsom ni drafodaethau ac rydym ni wedi cynnal y trafodaethau yna gyda’r Gweinidog iechyd dros y cyfnod oddi ar 2014 a chefais i gyfarfod gydag Andrew Goodall ryw dair wythnos yn ôl. Rydym ni wedi parhau i drafod, a thrafod y sector iechyd. Wrth fod y ddeddfwriaeth newydd o ran gofal cymdeithasol yn dod yn weithredol, mae sicrhau bod yr angen yna i gael cyfathrebu effeithiol trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a darparu gwasanaethau effeithiol trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn rhan ganolog o’r ddeddfwriaeth yna hefyd.	But, following our health inquiry report, published in 2014, we had discussions and we’ve held those discussions with the Minister for health over the period since 2014, and I had a meeting with Andrew Goodall around three weeks ago. We’ve continued to discuss that, in discussing the health sector. As the new legislation in terms of social care comes into force, we’ve ensured that that need to have effective communication through the medium of Welsh and the provision of effective services through the medium of Welsh is a central part of that legislation too.
[111] Erbyn hyn, mae gennym ni ‘Mwy na geiriau’ 2. Mae’r ail fframwaith wedi cael ei gyhoeddi. Mae e tipyn cryfach o ran targedau. Mae’n gryfach o ran ffocws. Mae’n ddyddiau cynnar o ran y gweithredu, ond rwy’n credu bod y strategaeth yna tipyn cryfach ac mae’r strategaeth yna yn gweithredu ochr yn ochr â’r ddeddfwriaeth newydd. Mae yna obaith. Y perig gydag unrhyw strategaeth megis ‘Mwy na geiriau’ yw ei bod hi’n eistedd tu fas i brif ffrwd polisi yn y maes yna. Mae ‘Mwy na geiriau’ fan hyn, ac mae cynllunio iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn digwydd fan hyn. A’r un feirniadaeth y buaswn i’n ei gwneud, ac rwyf i wedi ei gwneud yn ystod cyfnod y pedwerydd Cynulliad, yw bod angen i ni sicrhau bod ‘Mwy na geiriau’ yn symud o fan yna i mewn i’r canol.	Now, we have ‘More than just words’ 2. The second framework has been published and it’s a great deal stronger in terms of targets. It’s more robust in terms of focus. It’s early days in terms of implementation, but I do believe that that strategy is a great deal stronger, and that strategy operates side by side with the new legislation. So, there is hope. But the danger with any kind of strategy such as ‘More than just words’ is that it sits outwith the mainstream of policy in a particular area. There’s ‘More than just words’ here, and health and social care planning is happening over here. The criticism I would make, and I’ve made it over the period of the fourth Assembly, is that we need to ensure that ‘More than just words’ moves from here into the centre.
[112] Rwy’n dal i fod yn boenus ynglŷn â’r datblygiadau—sorri, rwy’n sôn am iechyd fan hyn ond mae yna ddatblygiadau o ran gofal sylfaenol ar hyn o bryd. Rydym ni’n symud i greu clystyrau. Nid wyf i’n sicr i ba raddau mae’r anghenion o ran cyfathrebu effeithiol yn y Gymraeg yn rhan o’r drafodaeth yna. So, felly, mae angen symud y drafodaeth o’r cyrion i’r canol.	I’m still concerned about the development—I’m talking about health here, but there are developments in terms of primary care at present. We’re moving towards creating clusters. I’m not sure to what extent the needs in terms of effective communication through the medium of Welsh are part of that discussion. So, we do need to move the discussion from the margins to the centre.
[113] Jeremy Miles: Sut mae gwneud hynny?	Jeremy Miles: How do you do that?
[114] Ms Huws: Trwy sicrhau eich bod chi fel pwyllgor yn gofyn y cwestiynau i feysydd megis iechyd, megis gofal cymdeithasol. Mae yna waith, yn sicr, i fi ei wneud, yn arbennig nawr wrth i’r ddeddfwriaeth gofal cymdeithasol a llesiant gael ei throi’n realiti wrth i’r safonau ar gyfer gofal cymdeithasol weld golau dydd, fel ein bod ni a fi yn siarad gyda’r bobl sy'n datblygu’r safonau hynny ac yn sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn ganolog a ddim yn rhywbeth ar y cyrion. Un esiampl dda o le mae hynny yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd yw bod strategaeth dementia yn cael ei chreu ar hyn o bryd. Rydym ni’n ganolog i’r trafodaethau yna; rŷm ni rownd y ford ac mae hynny’n gymorth anferth i brif ffrydio o'r dechrau.	Ms Huws: By ensuring that you as a committee are asking the questions of areas such as health or such as social care. There is work for me to do, especially now that the legislation on social care and well-being is being turned into a reality as the standards for social care see the light of day, so that we and I speak to those people who developed those standards and ensure that the Welsh language is a central consideration and not something on the margins. One good example of where that’s happening at present is that there is the dementia strategy being drawn up. We are at the heart of those discussions; we are around the table and that is of huge assistance in mainstreaming from the very beginning.
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[115] Mae yna feysydd eraill lle rwy’n boenus. Rwyf wedi sôn am ofal sylfaenol, ond mae hefyd iechyd meddwl a darpariaeth iechyd meddwl acíwt ac yn y gymuned. Rwy’n credu bod yna gonsýrn yn fanna o’m rhan i. Y ffordd, o’m rhan i, y gallaf i gyfrannu at hynny yw sicrhau fy mod i yn cyrraedd y ford a fy mod i yn gofyn i swyddogion o fewn y Llywodraeth, 'Beth ydych chi’n ei wneud o ran y Gymraeg?’ a’u hatgoffa nhw’n rheolaidd. Mae’n rhywbeth yr ŷm ni’n ei wneud ac yn ei wneud o ran y maes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol ar hyn o bryd.	There are other areas where I am slightly concerned. I’ve talked about primary care, but there is mental health and acute mental health provision and provision in the community. I do believe that there is concern there from my point of view. I can contribute to that by ensuring that I do get to the table and that I ask officials within the Government, ‘What are you doing in terms of the Welsh language?’, and to remind them regularly. That is something that we are doing and we’re doing that in the area of health and social care at present.
[116] Jeremy Miles: A fyddai’n deg i ddweud bod eich dealltwriaeth chi o’r darlun yn y maes iechyd yn well nag yw e yn y maes gofal cymdeithasol?	Jeremy Miles: Would it be fair to say that your understanding of the picture in terms of health is better than it is in the area of social care?
[117] Ms Huws: Na, rwy’n credu ein bod ni wedi gwneud gwaith penodol iawn o ran y maes gofal sylfaenol. Mae’r maes gofal sylfaenol yn un sydd yn arwain at ddarpariaeth iechyd ysbyty, ond hefyd yn gallu arwain yn naturiol at ofal cymdeithasol, a gan bod iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yng Nghymru yn symud yn nes ac yn nes at ei gilydd—. Ac mae’n rhaid imi ddweud, fel cyn-weithiwr cymdeithasol, rwy’n credu bod gen i sensitifrwydd at yr anghenion—yr anweladwy ar adegau ond yr aruthrol o bwysig.	Ms Huws: No, I think that we have done very specific work in terms of primary care and primary care is an area that leads to healthcare provision in hospitals, but can also lead very naturally to social care, and given that social care and health in Wales are moving closer and closer together—. And I have to say, as a former social worker myself, that I think that I have a sensitivity to those issues—the invisible issues sometimes, but crucially important.
[118] Jeremy Miles: Jest un cwestiwn arall: ar ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol a’r angen i gydweithio rhwng awdurdodau lleol, beth yw eich asesiad chi o’r cyfle neu’r bygythiad sy’n dod o hynny o safbwynt eich gwaith chi?	Jeremy Miles: Just one other question: on the reorganisation of local government and the need to collaborate between local authorities, what’s your assessment of the opportunities or threats that arise from that in terms of your work?
[119] Ms Huws: Diddorol. Gwnaf i droi at y ddau yma o ran ein gwaith ni gydag awdurdodau lleol. Rwy’n credu bod yna gyfleoedd, boed yn ailstrwythuro ffurfiol neu weithio ar y cyd yn wirfoddol. Mae yna gyfle gwych o ran awdurdodau lleol ac o ran darpariaeth y Gymraeg. Mae yna esiamplau ar gael, rydw i’n gwybod, lle mae awdurdodau lleol yn rhannu gwasanaethau cyfieithu er enghraifft. Ond fe wnaf i droi atoch chi’ch dau, achos mae yna esiamplau.	Ms Huws: That’s very interesting. I’ll turn to my colleagues in terms of our work with local authorities. I think that there are opportunities arising from formal restructuring or from joint working on a voluntary basis. There is an excellent opportunity in terms of local authorities and in terms of Welsh language services. There are examples, I know, where local authorities do share translation services, for example, but I’ll turn to you two, because there are examples.
[120] Ms Price: Yn sicr yn adroddiad y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, fe wnaethom ni roi enghreifftiau penodol yn y maes cyfieithu lle'r oedd un awdurdod lleol wedi camu ymlaen i gydlynu a gwneud contract cyfieithu ar ran grŵp o awdurdodau lleol, ac mae hynny'n dal i ddod yn wir, wrth gwrs. Mae’n sicrhau fod pethau’n fwy cost-effeithiol ac mae o’n codi safonau ar sawl lefel oherwydd eich bod chi’n gallu cael tîm, efallai, o swyddogion yn gweithio'n agos efo’i gilydd, ac mae hynny ynddo’i hun yn hwb, neu wedi bod yn yr achos yna, i ansawdd ac effeithlonrwydd y gwaith.	Ms Price: Certainly in last year’s report, we would have given specific examples in the area of translation where one local authority had stepped forward and co-ordinated activities and drawn up a translation contract for a group of local authorities, and that’s still in place, of course. It does ensure that things are more cost-effective and it does raise standards on a number of levels because you can get a team of officials working closely together, and that in itself is a boost, or has been in that instance, to the quality and efficiency of that work.
[121] Mae yna enghreifftiau eraill lle mae swyddogion yn cwrdd efo’i gilydd. Rydym ni wedi cwrdd efo Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru rai misoedd yn ôl, ac rydym ni yn trafod efo nhw beth i’w wneud er mwyn cynorthwyo lle mae pethau’n broblematig. Un maes, er enghraifft, ydy allanoli gwasanaethau, lle mae’r awdurdodau lleol wedi bod yn trafod efo ni rai anawsterau wrth iddyn nhw roi, er enghraifft, gwasanaethau hamdden allan o’u cyfrifoldeb nhw a sut mae modd iddyn nhw, wrth allanoli, wneud unrhyw beth o gwbl i gynnal y Gymraeg ar ôl y cyfnod lle maen nhw wedi rhoi gorau i fod yn gyfrifol am y gwasanaeth. Felly, rydym ni’n datblygu cyngor ar hynny.	There are other examples where officials meet. We’ve met with the Welsh Local Government Association a few months ago and we are having discussions with them in terms of what needs to be done in order to assist where problems arise. One area, for example, is outsourcing services, where local authorities have been discussing with us some difficulties that they’ve encountered as they outsource, for example, leisure services and how they can then, in outsourcing those services, do anything to sustain Welsh language services once they have outsourced that service and that they are no longer responsible for it. So, we’re developing advice on that.
[122] Maen nhw hefyd wedi trafod efo ni eu bod nhw angen gweithio ar bethau fel contractio trydydd parti. Mae gennym ni gyngor ar y ffordd yn ymwneud â hynny. Rwy’n ymwybodol iawn, yn y trafodaethau rydym ni wedi eu cael, fod rhai siroedd wedi gofyn i gael cyngor oherwydd eu bod nhw’n gweithio efo awdurdodau cyfagos wrth brynu gwasanaethau. Felly, mae'r rheini’n rhai enghreifftiau i chi. Ond, ie, mae pob newid yn gyfle ac rwy’n gobeithio y byddan nhw hefyd yn cymryd y cyfle. Yn sicr, byddwn ni’n cadw gorolwg dros beth sy’n digwydd.	They’ve also discussed with us the need to work on things such as third-party contracts. We do have some advice in the pipeline related to that. I am very aware, in the discussions that we’ve had, that certain counties have asked for advice because they are working with neighbouring authorities in purchasing services. So, those are just a few examples. But, yes, all change is an opportunity and I do hope that they too will take those opportunities. Certainly, we will be keeping an overview of that.
[123] Jeremy Miles: Rydych chi’n swnio’n optimistig.	Jeremy Miles: You sound optimistic.
[124] Ms Huws: Mi gaf i fy naearyddiaeth yn iawn y tro yma—yn y de-ddwyrain, er enghraifft, mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn gweithio’n agos iawn, iawn gyda’i gilydd o ran y maes darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae’r swyddogion iaith yna wedi creu endid lle maen nhw yn gweithio ar y cyd, rhannu arfer dda, rhannu adnoddau, ac mae hynny’n esiampl dda. Ydyn, rŷm ni’n bositif.	Ms Huws: I’ll get my geography right this time—in the south-east, for example, the local authorities are working very closely with each other in terms of Welsh-medium provision. Language officers have created and entity where they share good practice and work jointly and share resources, and that’s another good example. Yes, we are positive about this.
[125] Bethan Jenkins: Jest i gario mlaen gyda hynny’n fras, o ran awdurdodau lleol, a ydych chi wedi hala siopwyr cyfrinachol mewn i rai o’r cyfarfodydd cyhoeddus sydd yn digwydd ar hyd ac ar led Cymru ar hyn o bryd, o ran newid i wasanaethau? Rwyf i wedi codi hyn gyda chi o’r blaen, yng nghyd-destun y ffaith bod swyddogion mewn un cyngor sir wedi defnyddio’r ddadl bod costau cyfieithu yn amharu ar eu gallu nhw i wneud eu gwaith, neu i wneud toriadau mewn llefydd gwahanol. A ydych chi wedi gwneud rhyw fath o asesiad o agwedd, siŵr o fod, yn fwy na dim, o ran sut nad yw rhai swyddogion mewn rhai ardaloedd efallai yn deall yr hyn sydd yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad?	Bethan Jenkins: Just to continue with this discussion in terms of local authorities, have you sent mystery shoppers into some public meetings in local authorities that happen the length and breadth of Wales at present, in terms of changing their services? I’ve raised it with you before, in the context of the fact that officials in one county council had used the argument that translation costs affected their ability to do their work, or to make cuts in different areas. Have you undertaken any kind of assessment of the attitude perhaps, more than anything else, in terms of how officials in some areas perhaps don’t understand what’s happening at the grass roots?
[126] Ms Huws: A ydym ni wedi gwneud gwaith siopwyr cudd cyfarfodydd?	Ms Huws: Have we done any mystery shopper work on those meetings?
[127] Mr Jones: Nid oedd yr arolygon rydym ni wedi’u cynnal, sy’n bwydo’r adroddiad, o reidrwydd yn edrych yn benodol ar gyfarfodydd cyhoeddus, ond—	Mr Jones: Our surveys that fed into this report didn’t necessarily look specifically at public meetings, but—
[128] Ms Price: Na. Ac rwy’n meddwl, o ran y math o beth rydych chi’n sôn amdano fo, y byddai rhaid i ni gael rhywun i gysylltu â ni i dynnu sylw at achos penodol neu rywbeth felly. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni gangen o fewn y sefydliad sydd yn mynd ar ôl cwynion, ac yn ymchwilio ac yn mynd i gyswllt efo’r sefydliad unigol, ac mae’n anodd i ni ymateb i rywbeth nad oes gennym ni wybodaeth amdano fo. Nid wyf i’n ymwybodol o beth rydych chi’n ei godi mewn ffordd, ond, na, nid ydym wedi gwneud unrhyw waith profi efo cyfarfodydd cyhoeddus.	Ms Price: No. And I think that, in terms of the kind of thing that you’re talking about, we would have to have someone who contacted us to draw our attention to a specific case. And, of course, we have a branch within the organisation that does pursue complaints, and investigates those and contacts the specific organisation, and it’s difficult for us to respond to something that we have no information about. I’m not aware of the issue that you’re raising, in a way, but we haven’t undertaken any testing work in meetings.
[129] Bethan Jenkins: Er enghraifft, mae’r cyngor yn dweud, ‘A ydych chi’n gallu rhoi syniadau i ni, os nad ydych chi eisiau torri’r gwasanaeth yma, o ble y gall y toriadau ddod?’ Mae rhywun yn y gynulleidfa yn dweud, ‘Wel, rwy’n credu y dylem ni dorri’r iaith Gymraeg oherwydd mae’n wastraff arian.’ Mae’r swyddogion yn dweud, ‘Wel, rydym ni efallai yn cytuno gyda chi, ond nid ydym ni’n gallu gwneud hynny’. Ac felly, mae’r agwedd yn negyddol o ran yr ateb, yn hytrach na dweud, ‘Na, mae hyn yn rhywbeth pwysig i ni ei wneud; mae’n rhaid i chi sylweddoli ei fod e’n rhan o’r ddeddfwriaeth ac yn rhan o’n cylch gwaith ni.’ Hynny yw, dyna beth roeddwn i’n trio’i grybwyll yma.	Bethan Jenkins: For example, the council might say ‘Well, can you give us some ideas of where, if you don’t want to cut this service, those cuts should be made?’ Someone in the audience might say, ‘Well, we should cut Welsh language services because it’s a waste of money.’ And officers will say ‘Well, perhaps we agree with you, but we can’t necessarily do that.’ So, the attitude is negative, rather than saying, ‘Well, no, this is something important that we need to do, and you have to realise that it is part of legislation and it is part of our remit.’ That’s what I was driving at really.
[130] Ms Huws: Mae’n dod yn ôl at y cwestiwn yna o ddiwylliant sefydliad a hefyd arweiniad o fewn y sefydliad yna, ac egluro pam mae hyn yn bwysig. Oes, mae angen statudol, ond rwy’n credu dyna pam rydym ni yn targedu prif swyddogion gyda’r gwaith yma, i sicrhau bod nhw’n deall y pam. Nid yn unig cyfraith yw e, ond profiad y defnyddiwr mewn gwlad ddwyieithog. Mi ddylen nhw fod yn derbyn gwasanaethau o’r un ansawdd, gyda’r un urddas hefyd. Ond, mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud—nid ydym yn ei drafod fan hyn—ond mae’r ochr cwynion yn ein galluogi ni wedyn, pan fyddwn ni yn derbyn cwynion oddi wrth unigolion, i edrych i fewn i’r sefyllfa benodol yna. Ac mae hynny’n gallu arwain at newid agwedd hefyd.	Ms Huws: Well, it comes back to the question of culture within an organisation and leadership within the organisation, and explaining why this is important. Yes, there is a statutory requirement, but I think that’s why we’re targeting chief executives with this work, to ensure that they understand the reason. It’s not just a legal requirement, but it’s about the user’s experience in a bilingual nation. They should be receiving services of the same quality, with the same dignity too. But I do have to say—we’re not discussing it here—in terms of complaints, that side of things does allow us then, when we do receive complaints from individuals, to look into that specific situation. And that can lead to a change of attitude too.
[131] Bethan Jenkins: Grêt. Diolch yn fawr.	Bethan Jenkins: Great. Thank you.
[132] Did you want to come in on this particular issue?
[133] Lee Waters: Complaints is an issue I wanted to raise. I wanted to ask about that, about what happens when there’s a complaint, and the dynamic of your relationship with local authorities in particular. Could you just briefly explain to us the compliance process—what happens, how long it takes?
[134] Ms Price: Diolch yn fawr iawn. O dan y drefn safonau, mae gan unigolyn hawl i gwyno yn uniongyrchol i’r comisiynydd. Mi allan nhw gwyno wrth y sefydliad, ond mae ganddyn nhw hawl i gwyno i ni. Mae’n rhaid i’r comisiynydd ddilysu’r gŵyn, ac wedyn mae dau ddewis—i beidio ymchwilio, neu i gynnal ymchwiliad. Mae’r broses wedi’i gosod allan yn fanwl iawn yn y ddeddfwriaeth, ac mae gennym ni bolisi gorfodi hefyd sydd yn adlewyrchu’r Mesur. Felly, mae’n rhaid dilysu, mae’n rhaid i ni wirio bod y gŵyn yn un ddilys, ac wedyn, os yw’r comisiynydd yn penderfynu ymchwilio, mae’n rhaid gwneud cylch gorchwyl, ymgynghori efo’r achwynydd a’r sefydliad ar y cylch gorchwyl, cynnal yr ymchwiliad, ymgynghori ar ganfyddiadau drafft yr adroddiad, ac wedyn rydym ni’n gosod yr adroddiad terfynol.	Ms Price: Thank you very much. In terms of the standards regime, an individual has the right to complain directly to the commissioner. They can complain to the organisation, but they can also complain to the commissioner. The commissioner has to validate the complaint, and then there are two choices—there is a choice not to investigate or a choice to hold an investigation. That process is set out in detail in the the legislation, and we have an enforcement policy that reflects the legislation. So, we have to validate the complaint, we have to check that the complaint is a valid one, and then, if the commissioner decides to investigate, then we have to look at a remit, we have to consult with the complainant and the organisation on the remit, we have to hold the investigation, we have to consult on the report’s draft findings, and then we lay the final report.
[135] Felly, dyna’r broses, ond, wrth inni ddrafftio cylch gorchwyl, rydym ni hefyd yn drafftio cwestiynau—mae’n nhw’n benodol ynglŷn â’r achos. Mae yna gamau hefyd i herio’r tribiwnlys sawl gwaith. Er enghraifft, os ydy’r comisiynydd yn penderfynu peidio ag ymchwilio, mae gan achwynydd yr hawl i ofyn i’r tribiwnlys adolygu’r penderfyniad hwnnw. Mae yna gyfnodau eraill lle mae modd i sefydliad hefyd droi at y tribiwnlys os nad ydyn nhw’n cytuno efo canfyddiad neu efo cam gorfodi. Felly, mae yna nifer o gamau.	So, that’s the process, but, as we draft a remit, we also draft questions—they’re very specific in terms of the complaint and the case. There are also steps to challenge the tribunal several times. For example, if the commissioner decides not to investigate, the complainant has the right to ask the tribunal to review that decision. There are other times when an organisation can also turn to the tribunal if they don’t agree with a finding or an enforcement point. So, there are several steps that can be taken.
[136] Rydym ni wedi ceisio gwneud y drefn o ran gohebiaeth a phopeth mor syml â phosibl, oherwydd mae yna deimlad, o’n hochr ni, ei bod o’n eithaf cymhleth i’r achwynydd; mae’n gymhleth i’r sefydliad, ac i ni, ond, yn sicr i’r achwynydd. Felly, rydym ni wedi ceisio’n gorau i’w gywasgu, ond, eto, mae un ymchwiliad yn cymryd 90 diwrnod gwaith, o leiaf, er mwyn rhoi’r cyfnodau ymgynghori statudol sydd yn y Mesur. Felly, beth bynnag yw’r gŵyn, os oes yna benderfyniad i ymchwilio, mae’n cymryd amser.	We’ve tried to make the arrangements for correspondence and so on as simple as possible, because there is a sense, from our side, that it is quite complex for the complainant; it’s complex for the organisation, and for us too, but certainly for the complainant. So, we’ve tried to simplify the process, but one investigation can take 90 working days, at least, just to give the statutory consultation periods that are contained within the legislation. So, whatever the complaint, if there is a decision to investigate, it does take time.
[137] Mae yna opsiwn i ddirwyn ymchwiliadau i ben. Mae yna rai achosion lle’r ydym ni wedi cychwyn ymchwiliad a’n bod ni, o wneud yr ymholiadau cychwynnol, wedi gweld efallai nad oes angen parhau. Felly, mae yna gyfleoedd i ddirwyn i ben a dod i gytundeb setlo. Felly, mae yna nifer o bethau. Rwy’n hapus, os ydych chi eisiau gwybod mwy, i ddarparu nodyn.	There is an option to draw investigations to a close. There are some cases where we’ve started an investigation but, from making those initial inquiries, we’ve seen perhaps that we don’t need to continue. So, there are opportunities to close an investigation and to reach a settlement. So, there are several things. I'm more than happy, if you want to know more, to provide that information.
[138] Bethan Jenkins: Ie, rwy’n credu y bydd rhaid i ni symud ymlaen. Felly, os oes unrhyw beth—	Bethan Jenkins: Yes, we do need to move on. So, if there’s anything —
[139] Lee Waters: I want to pursue this for just a minute. I think, obviously, it’s useful for you to have those powers and it’s appropriate for you to use them from time to time. But, it sounds like a fairly adversarial process. I’ve certainly had feedback from senior people in local government that they feel a three-month process is quite difficult for them. In the Welsh Language Board, there was very much a philosophy of being constructive and helpful. I wonder if have you done any qualitative work with local authorities about how effective this process is and is it getting the best outcome from them, or is it simply locking people into—I’m not sure why you’re looking so sceptical, it’s a perfectly reasonable question—and locking yourselves into antagonistic relationships, which may well get in the way of what you’re trying to achieve?
[140] Ms Huws: Reit, rwy’n credu y liciwn i ddweud ei bod hi’n ddyddiau cynnar iawn, iawn o ran gweithredu’r gyfundrefn yma. Mae’r gyfundrefn yma wedi datblygu yn sgil Mesur y Gymraeg sydd yn weithredol gyda’r awdurdodau lleol ers prin chwe mis. Felly, mae’n ddyddiau cynnar i ni ac mae’n ddyddiau cynnar i’r awdurdodau lleol.	Ms Huws: Well, I think I would like to say that it’s at a very early stage in terms of implementing this regime. This regime has developed as a result of the Welsh language Measure, which has been operational within local authorities for just shy of six months. So, it’s early days for us and it's early days for the local authorities.
[141] Rwy’n flin iawn os yw pobl yn teimlo ein bod ni’n adversarial. Nid wyf yn siŵr am hynny, ond rwy’n fodlon derbyn hynny. Os oes yna bethau penodol, rwy’n hapus iawn i glywed hynny.	I'm very sorry if people think we are adversarial. I'm not sure about that, but I'm willing to accept that. If there are any specifics, then I’d be happy to receive the details.
[142] Buaswn i, yn hollol onest, yn dweud bod y gyfundrefn rydym ni’n ei dilyn yn cael ei gosod allan yn y Mesur. Mi fuasem ni’n gweithredu’n ultra vires petasem ni ddim yn dilyn y camau sy’n cael eu gosod allan yn y Mesur. Mae’r Mesur yn golygu nad ydym ni’n gallu gwneud datrysiadau buan. Mae datrysiadau buan—alternative dispute resolution—yn rhywbeth sydd erbyn hyn yn rhan ganolog o lot fawr o gyfraith weinyddol. Mae’r Mesur ei hun yn dweud allwn ni ddim mynd i lawr yr hewl yna. Mae hynny yn creu problemau i ni hefyd—lle buasem ni’n dymuno cael datrysiad buan, nid oes modd i ni wneud hynny. Fe fydd hynny’n rhywbeth y byddwn ni’n ei fwydo mewn wrth fod trafodaethau ynglŷn â diwygio’r Mesur fel ein bod ni’n gallu hwyluso’r prosesau yna.	I would be quite honest in saying that the regime that we follow is set out in the Measure. We would be operating on an ultra vires basis if we didn’t follow the steps set out in the Measure. The Measure does mean that we can’t come to early resolutions. Alternative dispute resolution is something that is a central part of much of administrative law by now. The Measure itself states that we can’t go down that particular route. That creates some difficulties for us too. Where we would like to have early resolution, that isn’t an option for us. That is something that we will feed in as discussions on amendments to the Measure are made so that we can facilitate those processes.
[143] Bethan Jenkins: Yn gwmws. Fe allwn ni gael y drafodaeth ynglŷn â hynny pan fydd y Gweinidog yn edrych ar newid y Mesur.	Bethan Jenkins: Exactly. We can have a discussion on that when the Minister looks to changing the Measure.
[144] Ms Huws: Un peth y gwnaf i ddweud: rwy’n ceisio bod yn rheoleiddiwr â gwên, achos, ar ben draw'r daith, gwella’r sefyllfa i bawb yw’r nod. Os oes rhywun wedi gweld ochr arall, rwy’n credu bod angen i mi glywed hynny er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni i gyd yn cyd-gerdded i’r un pwrpas, yn hytrach na’n bod ni’n mynd ben wrth ben.	Ms Huws: One thing I would say is that I do try and be a smiling regulator, because at the end of the day, we’re trying to improve the situation for all. If someone has seen another side to that, then I think I need to hear those details in order to ensure that we are all working jointly towards the same aim, rather than going head to head.
[145] Bethan Jenkins: Symudwn ni ymlaen nawr at Hannah.	Bethan Jenkins: We’ll move on now to Hannah.
[146] Hannah Blythyn: Rwy’n dal i ddysgu Cymraeg.	Hannah Blythyn: I’m still learning Welsh.
[147] So, I think I’ll err on the side of caution and ask my questions in Welsh—in English; a Freudian slip there. [Laughter.] On the report, a lot of colleagues have touched on the issues around the failings in providing Welsh language services, whether that’s meeting requirements for face to face, the telephone or online. I’m pleased to see, in one of your responses, that officers are working on examples of best practice, because it’s the carrot-and-stick approach, isn’t it? So, I’d be keen to know, in your opinion, whether there are specific sectors or organisations who lead the way on this. Also, it seems from the report that there’s a level almost of uncertainty, or not clearly understanding the requirements of public sector organisations. So, do you think there are certain factors behind that, and actually what support and assistance or plans from your office are there to take that forward and improve on that?
10:45
[148] Ms Huws: Iawn. Diolch yn fawr. Rydw i’n credu mai’r peth cyntaf i’w nodi yw bod yr adroddiad yma wedi cael ei ffocysu ar y cyfnod cyn bod safonau yn weithredol. Felly, beth rŷm ni’n edrych arno yw cyfnod diwethaf cynlluniau iaith o ran awdurdodau lleol. Os ŷch chi yn gofyn i fi beth oedd llwyddiant cynlluniau iaith, wel, fe wnaethon nhw yn sicr, oddi ar 1993, newid y tirwedd o ran y Gymraeg a gwasanaethau Cymraeg. I’r rheini ohonom ni sy’n gallu cofio’r cyfnod cyn hynny, mae’r byd wedi newid yn llwyr.	Ms Huws: Right. Thank you very much. I think that the first thing to note is that this report has focused on the period before standards were implemented. So, what we’re looking at is the final period of language schemes in terms of local authorities. But if you’re asking me what the successes of language schemes were, well, certainly since 1993 they changed the landscape in terms of Welsh language services. For those of us who can remember the period before that, the world has changed entirely.
[149] Ond, un o sgil-effeithiau cynlluniau iaith oedd y diffyg cysondeb rydych chi’n sôn amdano. Mi oedd pob cynllun iaith yn wahanol, oherwydd y sefydliad ei hunan oedd yn creu’r cynllun iaith, yn disgrifio sut y buasen nhw’n darparu gwasanaethau Cymraeg. Mae hynny wedi arwain at anghysondeb ar draws Cymru. Felly, mae’n naturiol, rydw i’n credu, ein bod ni yn gweld yr ansicrwydd a’r anghysondeb yna yn y gwaith yma.	But one of the after-effects of language schemes was the lack of consistency that you’re talking about. Every language scheme was different because the institution itself created that particular language scheme to describe how they provided Welsh language services. That has led to inconsistency across Wales. So it’s natural, therefore, I think, that we see that uncertainty and inconsistency in this work.
[150] A ydw i’n meddwl bod safonau yn mynd i newid y sefyllfa yna? Ydw. Mae safonau’n lot fwy pendant. Maen nhw yn gosod allan disgwyliadau yn glir, a hefyd yn gosod, fel mae Gwenith wedi’i ddweud, dyddiad gosod—maen nhw’n rhoi calendr i sefydliad: beth ydw i fod ei wneud, ac erbyn pryd? Rydw i’n gobeithio bod hynny yn mynd i arwain at fwy o sicrwydd o ran darpariaeth.	Do I think that standards are going to change the situation? Yes, I do. Standards have much more certainty attached to them. They do lay out expectations very clearly, and they also set out, as Gwenith has said, the date of implementation. They set out a calendar for an organisation: when do I need to do this, and when is the deadline? I hope that that is going to lead to more certainty in terms of provision.
[151] A oes yna arferion da allan yna, ac a ydym ni’n eu rhannu nhw? Mae yna ffocws, yn naturiol, yn yr adroddiad yma ar le mae pethau yn mynd o’i le, a dechrau canolbwyntio ar hynny. Mae yna arfer dda allan yna, ac rŷm ni yn rhannu hynny gyda sefydliadau yn ein cyfarfodydd unigol gyda nhw, ac yn y cyfarfodydd fframwaith yr ŷm ni’n eu cael gyda sectorau. Rŷm ni hefyd yn gweithio gyda chyrff fel y WLGA i rannu’r arfer dda yna, ac rŷm ni’n cynhyrchu deunyddiau fel hyn. Mae hwn yn ganllaw ar ddylunio dwyieithog. Mae yna ganllaw arall gyda ni ar recriwtio. Mae yna ganllaw arall, fel sydd wedi cael ei sôn yn barod, ar allanoli gwasanaethau, ac mae’r rheini yn rhannu arfer dda ac esiamplau o arfer dda.	Are there good practices out there, and are we sharing them? Well, there is a natural focus in this report on where things go wrong, and we’re trying to focus on that. There is good practice out there, and we do share that with organisations in our individual meetings with them and the framework meetings that we have with sectors. We also work with bodies such as the WLGA to share that good practice, and we do produce material such as this. This is a guide for bilingual planning. There is another guide to recruitment and another guide to outsourcing services. They share good practice and examples of good practice.
[152] Felly, mae yna ymdrech fawr i weld lle mae’r gwendidau ond hefyd i rannu arferion gorau. Rydw i, yn aml, wrth i mi ddarllen adroddiad fel hyn gyda swyddogion, yn troi y negyddol yn bositif. Rŷm ni’n gwybod fan hyn nad ydy 48 y cant o unigolion efallai wedi derbyn y gwasanaeth ffôn y buasen nhw’n ei ddisgwyl. Mae hynny’n golygu bod 52 y cant wedi. Os ydy 52 y cant yn gallu cael hynny, pam ddim 100 y cant? Rydw i’n credu bod eisiau gofyn y cwestiwn yna i sefydliadau: ‘Os yw’r sefydliad yma yn gallu llwyddo, a dyma siẁd maen nhw’n llwyddo, beth sy’n eich rhwystro chi rhag llwyddo, a beth ŷch chi’n mynd i’w wneud amdano fe?’	So, there has been a great deal of effort to see where the weaknesses are but also to share best practice. Often, as I read a report like this with officials, I turn a negative into a positive. We know here that 48 per cent of individuals perhaps haven’t received the telephone service that they would expect. But that means that 52 per cent have. Now, if 52 per cent can have that, why not 100 per cent? I think that we need to ask that question to organisations: ‘If that particular organisation can succeed and this is how they’re doing it, what’s stopping you from doing that and succeeding, and what are you going to do about it?’
[153] Felly, mae’r drafodaeth yna yn drafodaeth sydd yn digwydd drwy’r flwyddyn, ac mi fydd yn parhau i ddigwydd yn rhan o’r gweithdai ac yn y blaen.	So, that discussion is one that is happening, and it happens throughout the year. It will continue to take place as part of the workshops and so on.
[154] Bethan Jenkins: Rwyf i’n mynd i symud ymlaen nawr at amcanion yr adroddiad, achos rydw i’n credu ein bod ni wedi trafod ansawdd yn weddol swmpus yma heddiw. Felly, Neil. Diolch.	Bethan Jenkins: I’m going to move on to the intentions and objectives of the report, because I think we have discussed quality at some length here today. So, Neil.
[155] Neil Hamilton: Like Dai Lloyd, I’ve derived some entertainment from your report as well as profit—almost the kind of entertainment that you get from reading a horror story, in some ways. Having lived for the last half century in a non-Welsh-speaking environment and coming back to Wales, having said what I’ve just said, nevertheless it’s clear that great action has been taken to stop the rot, and so we shouldn’t be wholly negative about what you’ve reported by any means. I’m taking advantage of the simultaneous translation system here to try and divide my brain in two when I hear evidence in Welsh, so that I have Welsh coming in one ear and English coming in the other, and it is definitely helping me to accustom myself to the language again. But as regards the future of your reporting, is this going to become an annual event? I was thinking that the pace of change is inevitably going to be relatively slow, so is the annual change going to be worth reporting on? You think it is.
[156] Ms Huws: Ydy. Mae yna fwriad i gyhoeddi adroddiad o’r math yma yn flynyddol. A ydy hynny’n rhy aml? Nac ydy, oherwydd rwy’n credu ein bod ni’n adeiladu ar lwyddiant y cynlluniau iaith. Rwy’n credu ei bod hi’n bwysig iawn ein bod ni’n cadw ffocws yn y cyfnod o gyflwyno safonau i edrych ar beth sydd yn gwella, beth sydd ddim yn gwella, a gofyn y cwestiwn pam ac a oes modd delio â hynny’n systemig. Er enghraifft, rwy’n gwybod nawr bod technoleg gwybodaeth yn sialens i amryw o sefydliadau. Un peth y gallwn ni ei wneud yw gweithio ar y cyd i adnabod y datrysiadau. Felly, rwy’n credu bod adrodd yn flynyddol yn gweithio, mae’n cynnal y momentwm ac mae pobl yn licio gweld llwyddiant. Mae llwyddiant yn bwydo llwyddiant. Felly, gyda sefydliadau, mae modd cynnal y momentwm yna.	Ms Huws: Yes. There is an intention to publish a report such as this one on an annual basis. Is that too often? No, it isn’t, because I do believe that we are building upon the foundation of the success of language schemes. I think it’s important that we retain focus as we introduce standards in order to look at what is improving, what isn’t improving, and to ask why and whether we can deal with that in a systemic way. For example, I know that ICT is a challenge for a number of organisations. One thing we can do is to work jointly to identify resolutions. I do think that annual reporting is working, it maintains momentum, and people like to see success. Success feeds success. So, with organisations, you can maintain that momentum.
[157] Rŷm ni wedi dechrau ar y gwaith o baratoi'r arolygon at flwyddyn nesaf, i’r adroddiad nesaf; mae’r rheini wedi dechrau. Mae hefyd yn bwysig i gofio, erbyn diwedd mis Mawrth y flwyddyn nesaf, bydd 78 o sefydliadau yng Nghymru yn gweithio o dan safonau, nid y 26 cychwynnol yn unig. Bydd yr heddluoedd yna ac mi fydd sefydliadau mawr cenedlaethol Cymru hefyd. Rwy’n credu ei bod yn help i gael y math yma o thermomedr blynyddol i ddweud beth yw’r gwres, lle mae’r gwres, ac os oes yna or-wres, beth y gallwn ni ei wneud i ddatrys hynny.	We have started the work of preparing the surveys for next year, in preparation for the next report; that work has commenced. It’s also important to bear in mind that, by the end of March next year, there will be 78 organisations and institutions in Wales working under standards, not the initial 26. The police forces will be included and large national institutions within Wales will also be included. I think it helps to have this kind of annual thermometer, if you like, in order to tell us what the temperature is, where the temperature is at its hottest, and, if things are overheating, what we can do to resolve those problems.
[158] Neil Hamilton: So, you will use the report to monitor compliance with Welsh language standards.
[159] Ms Huws: Mae’n un o’r ffyrdd; wrth gwrs, mae’r ochr cwynion yn ffordd arall. Ond, mae hon yn ffordd bositif. Mae’r ymateb i’r ddogfen, yn arbennig eleni, wedi bod yn un aruthrol o bositif, ac rwy’n credu mai’r hyn sy’n mynd i greu llwyddiant yw’r gwaith sy’n dilyn yr adroddiad—y camau nesaf. Ond rwy’n gredwr mawr fod llwyddiant yn bwydo llwyddiant, ac felly mae angen i ni ddathlu lle mae pethau’n gwella ac yn cryfhau, a gofyn y cwestiwn os nad ydyn nhw.	Ms Huws: It’s one way; of course, the complaints system is another way of doing it. But this is a positive approach. The response to the document, particularly this year, has been exceptionally positive, and I think that what will generate success is the work that will follow on from this report—the next steps, if you like. But I am a great believer that success breeds success and therefore we should celebrate those improvements, and ask questions if they are not improving.
[160] Bethan Jenkins: A ydych chi’n disgwyl y bydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru rôl o ran y canfyddiadau, nid dim ond o ran y gweithdai rydych yn mynd i fynd nôl a’u gwneud? A ydych chi’n gweld rôl iddyn nhw?	Bethan Jenkins: Do you expect the Welsh Government to have a role in terms of the findings, not just in terms of the workshops that you’re going to be holding? Do you see a role for the Welsh Government?
[161] Ms Huws: Rwy’n credu bod y penderfyniad i gyhoeddi a lansio’r adroddiad fan hyn yn y Senedd yr wythnos diwethaf yn ceisio creu’r bartneriaeth yna. Hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithredu o fewn y safonau eu hunain, felly maen nhw’n rhan o beth rŷm ni’n edrych arno. Ond, mae hwn yn waith partneriaeth: Llywodraeth, comisiynydd, sefydliadau ymbarél, sefydliadau unigol, cyrff megis Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru—mae yna lot o bobl yn rhan o’r daith yma, ac, wrth gwrs, y defnyddiwr.	Ms Huws: I think the decision to publish and launch the report here in the Senedd last week did try to engender that partnership. Of course, the Welsh Government is also operating under standards themselves, so they are part of what we look at. But, this is partnership work between the Government, the commissioner, umbrella organisations, individual institutions and organisations, bodies such as the Welsh NHS Confederation—there are many people who are part of this journey, and, of course, the service users.
[162] Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Symudwn ymlaen nawr i faterion ychwanegol, ac rwy’n credu bod gan Lee gwestiynau yn hynny o beth, am y strategaeth o ran y filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg.	Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. We’ll move on to additional items, and I believe that Lee has questions in that regard, about the strategy of having 1 million Welsh speakers, and so on.
[163] Lee Waters: Yes. Just a broad, open question, really: what views do you have on what the Government’s priorities should be for the future of the language over the next few years, in the light of its strategy?
[164] Ms Huws: Diolch. Rŷm ni’n mynd i ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad ar y strategaeth a gafodd ei lansio yn yr Eisteddfod. Pe baech chi’n gofyn i fi beth yw’r penawdau sy’n bwysig i fi, mae cynllunio’r gweithlu ac addysg yn aruthrol o bwysig. Rŷch chi eich hunan wedi codi cwestiynau yn fan hyn ynglŷn â sgiliau ieithyddol pobl sy’n ceisio am swyddi. Mae angen i ni gydnabod bod yna sialens anferth yn y fan yna o ran addysg. Prif ffrydio’r Gymraeg i mewn i benderfyniadau polisi yn gyffredinol: ein bod ni’n meddwl fel gwlad ddwyieithog, ein bod ni’n creu polisi fel gwlad ddwyieithog ac, yn hytrach na bod y Gymraeg ar y cyrion, fel rŷm ni’n sôn o ran ‘Mwy na geiriau’, mae’n braf gweld bod hynny’n dechrau cael ei brif ffrydio. Ac rwy’n mynd i ddweud eto, oherwydd ei bod yn hollbwysig i ddinasyddion Cymru: rydw i yn credu bod y gwaith o ddatblygu’r gwasanaeth iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, a sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn rhan ganolog o hynny, hefyd yn bwysig. Mae hynny’n faes polisi. Ond, ein hwyluso ni i fod yn wlad ddwyieithog. Rwy’n credu bod y targed ei hunan o 1 filiwn o siaradwyr erbyn canol y ganrif yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod addysg—ysgolion, addysg bellach, prifysgolion ac addysg gydol oes—yn holl, holl hollbwysig yn hynny, i greu’r hyder er mwyn bod pobl yn defnyddio’r Gymraeg ac yn falch o wneud hynny.	Ms Huws: Thank you. We will be responding to the consultation on the strategy that was launched at the Eisteddfod. If you were to ask me what headlines are important to me, then I would say that workforce planning and education are both exceptionally important. You have raised questions here this morning on the language skills of those people applying for jobs. We need to recognise the huge challenge that exists there in terms of education. Mainstreaming the Welsh language in terms of policy decisions more generally: that we think as a bilingual nation, that we create policy as a bilingual nation, rather than the Welsh language being at the margins, as I mentioned in terms of ‘More than just words’. It’s good to see that is now starting to be mainstreamed. I will repeat once again, because it is crucially important for the citizens of Wales: I do believe that the work of developing the health and social care sectors, and ensuring that the Welsh language is at the heart of that, is also very important. That’s a policy area. But, facilitating the creation of a bilingual nation. I think that the target itself of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 does reflect the fact that education—schools, further education, universities and higher education institutions, and lifelong learning—is crucially important in that, to create that confidence so that people do use the Welsh language and are proud to do so.
[165] Bethan Jenkins: Mae gan Jeremy gwestiwn hefyd.	Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy has a question too.
[166] Jeremy Miles: Yn nhermau’r newidiadau polisi sydd eu hangen, effaith yr adroddiad hwn a’r adroddiadau blynyddol ar ein dealltwriaeth ni o’r tirlun, a oedd unrhyw beth yn eich ymchwil chi a’ch dadansoddiad chi a wnaeth eich synnu chi fel comisiynydd?	Jeremy Miles: In terms of the policy changes that are needed, the effect of this report and the annual reports on our understanding of the landscape, was there anything in your research and your analysis that surprised you as commissioner?
[167] Ms Huws: Nid wy’n siŵr os mai synnu oedd e, ond rwy’n credu ein bod ni’n cydnabod ein bod wedi cyrraedd rhyw fan fflat o ran twf gwasanaethau. Roedd hynny’n bownd o ddigwydd wrth inni symud o gynlluniau iaith i safonau—rŷch chi’n cael y tir fflat yna, lle mae pobl yn eistedd nôl ac yn ailystyried beth sy’n digwydd. Rwy’n boenus nad ydym yn aros ar y tir fflat ac nad ydym yn aros ar y tir fflat, ac nad ydym yn derbyn y tir fflat fel diwedd y daith. Mae yna gam mawr i gymryd eto, sy’n cael ei adlewyrchu yn nheitl yr adroddiad. Felly, rwyf am sicrhau nad ydym yn aros yn yr unfan a bod yn gyfforddus gyda hanner llwyddiant, oherwydd llwyddiant llwyr rŷm ni eisiau, a dyna pam rwy’n credu bod y math yma o adroddiad yn bwysig.	Ms Huws: I don’t know if ‘surprise’ would be the word, but I do think that we acknowledge that we have flatlined in terms of the growth of services. That was bound to happen as we moved from language schemes to standards—you do have that flatlining, where people do sit back and reconsider what’s been done and what’s happening. I am concerned that we shouldn’t remain at that flatline and that we shouldn’t accept that as the end of our journey. There is another major step that needs to be taken, which is reflected in the title of the report. So, I want to ensure that we are not at a standstill and that we are comfortable with half a success, because we want to succeed fully, and I do think that this kind of report is important in that context.
[168] Un peth a wnaeth fy synnu—nid wyf wedi sôn amdano fe ac rwy’n mynd i’w godi fe ar y diwedd—yw’r camu nôl sydd wedi bod o ran darpariaeth sy’n deillio o Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae eu gwasanaethau nhw sydd yn dod i mewn i Gymru wedi gwanhau yn ystod y cyfnod diwethaf yma, ac mae hynny’n peri pryder mawr i mi. Rwyf wedi cysylltu â Swyddfa Cymru ac rwyf wedi codi hyn gyda Gweinidogion yn San Steffan. Y prif reswm dros y gwanhau sydd wedi digwydd yw datblygiad, neu gyflwyno GOV.UK, sydd yn golygu bod darpariaeth a oedd yn gryf gan asiantaethau megis yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau, wedi gwanhau’n syfrdanol. Nid rhyw arafu rŷm ni wedi’i weld, ond carlamu nôl o ran darpariaeth sydd yn deillio o San Steffan. O weld y ffigurau o’m blaen, mae hynny yn peri pryder mawr ac fe fyddwn ni’n dilyn hynny i fyny. Nid wy’n gwybod a ydy hynny o ddiddordeb i chi fel pwyllgor, ond yn sicr—. Ac yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yma, rwyf wedi cael asiantaethau Llywodraeth San Steffan yn dod atom ni ac yn cwyno am Swyddfa’r Cabinet a GOV.UK ac yn dweud ei fod e nawr yn amharu ar eu gwaith nhw a’u bod nhw’n flin bod y gwasanaethau roedden nhw wedi datblygu—gwasanaethau dwyieithog eithaf grymus—wedi cael eu llesteirio gan ddatblygiad GOV.UK.	One thing that did surprise me—and I haven’t mentioned it and I do want to raise it at the end—is the stepping back that’s taken place in terms of provision made by the UK Government. The services provided by them in Wales have weakened over this past period, and that is a cause of major concern for me. I have contacted the Wales Office and I’ve raised it with Ministers in Westminster too. The main reason for that is the introduction of GOV.UK, which means that provision that was once strong from agencies such as the Department for Work and Pensions, has now deteriorated astonishingly. We haven’t seen a slowdown, but we have seen a galloping backwards in terms of the provision from Westminster. In seeing the figures in front of me, that really is causing me major concern and we will be following that up. I don’t know if that’s of interest to you as a committee, but, certainly—. And over this past year, I have seen agencies of the Westminster Government approaching us complaining about the Cabinet Office and GOV.UK and saying that it is now hampering their work and that they are concerned that the strong bilingual services that they put in place have been hampered by the development of GOV.UK.
[169] Bethan Jenkins: A allaf jest ofyn un cwestiwn clou? Rydych chi wedi sôn am y gwledydd eraill sydd yn effeithiol, ac roeddwn i fy hun yng Nghanada dros yr haf, ac roeddwn i’n synnu nad jest yn Quebec yr oedd Ffrangeg yn gryf, ond ymhob man. A ydych chi’n mynd i wneud pwt o waith i ddangos lle mae yna arfer da, fel roedd Dai yn dweud o ran yr Almaen, i ni ddeall pa wledydd eraill sydd yn prif ffrydio dwyieithrwydd, neu fwy na dwy iaith, o fewn eu cylch gwaith, neu o fewn eu bywydau pob dydd?	Bethan Jenkins: May I ask one quick question? You’ve talked about other nations that are effective, and I was in Canada over the summer, and I was surprised that it wasn’t just in Quebec that French was strong, but everywhere. Are you going to do some work to show where there is good practice, as Dai said in terms of Germany, so that we can understand which other nations are mainstreaming bilingualism, or more than two languages, within their work or within their everyday lives?
[170] Ms Huws: Ydyn. Ar hyn o bryd, rydw i’n gadeirydd y ffederasiwn comisiynwyr iaith rhyngwladol. Mae yna 10 ohonom ni. Mae pump ohonyn nhw yng Nghanada—un ar lefel ffederal, un yn Ontario ac un yn New Brunswick, ac wedyn mae yna ddau yn cynrychioli’r ieithoedd lleiafrifol yn Nunavut a’r Northwest Territories. Mae yna gomisiynydd iaith yn Kosovo, mae yna un yn Iwerddon, ac wedyn mae ombwdsmyn Gwlad y Basg a Chatalonia yn gweithredu fel comisiynwyr iaith. Rŷm ni’n cyfarfod yn rheolaidd. Mi fyddwn ni’n cyfarfod yng Nghaerdydd fel ffederasiwn mis Mai’r flwyddyn nesaf, ar 17 Mai, ac fe fydd yna wahoddiad i chi gyd i fynychu. Bydd hynny’n gyfle inni roi golau Cymraeg a Chymreig ar yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn rhyngwladol.	Ms Huws: Yes. At the moment, I am chair of the federation of language commissioners on an international basis. There are 10 of us in total. Five of those are in Canada—one at a federal level, one in Ontario, one in New Brunswick, and there are two representing the minority languages in Nunavut and the Northest Territories. There is a language commissioner in Kosovo, there’s one in Ireland and then there are the ombudsmen in the Basque Country and Catalonia who operate as language commissioners. We meet regularly. We will be meeting in Cardiff as a federation in May of next year, on 17 May, and you will all be invited to attend that meeting. That will be an opportunity for us to shine a Welsh light on what is happening internationally.
11:00
[171] Mae yna wersi bendigedig, yn arbennig ym maes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, i ni eu dysgu o Ganada. Mae yna wersi yn sicr o ran y gweithlu yng Nghanada, lle mae unrhyw aelod o’r gwasanaeth sifil yn gorfod bod yn ddwyieithog erbyn hyn. Nid yw’n ddewisol, mae’n orfodol. Ni wnewch chi symud i fyny yn y gwasanaeth sifil oni bai eich bod chi’n gallu gweithio yn y ddwy iaith. Felly, mae yna fodelau diddorol ac esiamplau diddorol.	There are wonderful lessons, particularly in terms of health and social care, that we can learn from Canada. There are certainly lessons to be learnt in terms of workforce planning in Canada, where any member of the civil service has to be bilingual by now. It’s not an option, it is a requirement. You won’t move up in the civil service unless you can work through the medium of both languages. So, there are interesting models and examples out there.
[172] Mae Canada yn ddifyr i fi oherwydd mae gyda nhw ddeddfwriaeth oddi ar 1969—yr Official Languages Act 1969—ac felly, pan rwy’n disgrifio ein sefyllfa ni iddyn nhw, yn arbennig i’r comisiynydd ffederal, mae e’n dweud, ‘Mae hynny’n gywir fel oedd pethau fan hyn ar ddiwedd yr wythdegau’. Felly, mae’r daith yna’n bwysig hefyd.	Canada is very interesting to me because they have had legislation since 1969—the Official Languages Act 1969—and therefore, when I describe our situation to them, particularly to the federal commissioner, he says, ‘That’s exactly how things were here at the end of the eighties’. Therefore, that journey is also important.
[173] Y cwestiwn arall yw newid diwylliant. Fe allwch chi newid cyfraith, ond sut ydych chi’n newid diwylliant? Rwy’n credu ein bod ni ar y pwynt yna. Felly, flwyddyn nesaf, fe gawn ni gyfle i edrych ar yr hyn y mae’r byd mawr yn ei wneud o ran dwyieithrwydd.	The other question is culture change. You can change the law, but how can you change culture? I do think we’re at that point. So, next year, we will have an opportunity to look at what’s happening out there in the global context in terms of bilingualism.
[174] Efallai, os caf i gynnig, y buasech chi â dymuniad i gael rhai o’r comisiynwyr i ddod i gyflwyno i chi. Byddai Graham Fraser, rwy’n gwybod, sydd jest yn camu i lawr fel comisiynydd ffederal Canada, yn hapus iawn, iawn i wneud hynny, ac i edrych yn ôl ar ei 10 mlynedd e fel comisiynydd.	May I suggest, perhaps, that you may wish to have some of the commissioners to come to present to you? I’m sure that Graham Fraser, who is about to step down as the federal commissioner for Canada, would be more than happy to do so, and to look back at his 10 years as a commissioner.
[175] Bethan Jenkins: Rwy’n sicr yn meddwl y byddai hynny o ddiddordeb i’r Aelodau. Fe allwn ni drafod â chi sut y byddai hynny’n digwydd yn y man. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod yma heddiw ac am rannu eich tystiolaeth.	Bethan Jenkins: I certainly think that that would be of interest to Members. We can discuss with you how that will take place in due course. Thank you very much for joining us today and for giving your evidence.
[176] Fe fyddwn ni’n cymryd seibiant clou nawr ar gyfer yr Aelodau ac wedyn yn cychwyn yn ôl. Diolch yn fawr.	We will be taking a quick break now for Members and we’ll start back soon. Thank you.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:01 ac 11:08. The meeting adjourned between 11:01 and 11:08.
Adolygiad Llywodraeth Cymru o Wasanaethau Treftadaeth: Tystiolaeth gan Amgueddfa Cymru Welsh Government Review of Heritage Services: Evidence from National Museum Wales
[177] Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni nawr yn symud i eitem 3 ar yr agenda, sef adolygiad Llywodraeth Cymru o wasanaethau treftadaeth. Rydym ni’n derbyn tystiolaeth gan Amgueddfa Cymru, gan David Anderson, y bore yma. Cefndir hyn, wrth gwrs—mae’n bwysig i mi ddweud mai pwrpas y sesiwn yw cymryd tystiolaeth oddi wrthych chi, cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol Amgueddfa Cymru, yma y bore yma am adolygiad Llywodraeth Cymru o wasanaethau treftadaeth.	Bethan Jenkins: We will now move on to item 3 on the agenda, which is the Welsh Government’s review of heritage services. We’re hearing evidence from National Museum Wales, from David Anderson, this morning. This background of this, of course—it’s important for me to say that the purpose of the session is to take evidence from you, the director general of National Museum Wales, about the Welsh Government’s review of heritage services.
[178] Rydym ni wedi cael llythyrau niferus gan bobl yn y sector, ac rydym eisiau cychwyn, felly, rhyw fath o ddarn o waith a chlywed lleisiau gwahanol i geisio mynd i’r afael â’r sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd ac i ddeall safbwyntiau gwahanol. Nid ydw i’n gwybod eto pa fath o ymchwiliad y bydd hwnnw, ond rydym ni eisiau dechrau cymryd sylwadau gan y bobl hynny sydd yn sicr yn mynd i gael eu heffeithio gan unrhyw newidiadau o greu treftadaeth Cymru.	We have received numerous letters from individuals within the sector, and so we want to start some kind of work on this issue, and to hear different voices so that we can try to get a grip of the situation as it stands and to understand different points of view. I don’t know yet what kind of inquiry this will lead to, but we do want to start gathering evidence from those people who are certainly going to be affected by any changes in creating Historic Wales.
[179] Felly, croeso i chi yma heddiw. Os hoffech chi ddweud cwpl o eiriau i gychwyn, wedyn bydd Aelodau yn dod mewn, fesul un, gyda phwyntiau o ddiddordeb ganddyn nhw. Diolch yn fawr.	So, welcome to you here today. If you would just like to make a few introductory comments, Members will then raise points of interest with you. Thank you.
[180] Mr Anderson: Diolch. I think I really want to start by thanking the committee for inviting me to come today and have the opportunity to provide you with some further information. I do want to stress as a kind of foundation of everything that I will say—and I think I speak for the museum completely in this—that we really fully support working in partnership with other heritage bodies, and, in fact, come to that, other environmental bodies, because of our natural sciences collections, and other arts bodies—the Arts Council of Wales, Artes Mundi and so on—because of our identity as an arts institution, too. I think it’s worth emphasising that we have multiple disciplines that we represent. History—and heritage, of course—is one very important one, but there are others as well. As we think about how we move forward, all our relationships, all our partnerships, need to be part of our thinking.
[181] The Minister quoted me, I think a week or so ago, I think either in the Senedd or with this committee, as supporting partnerships, and I stand by every single word he quoted me as saying on that. The thing that I would want to stress, though, is that the context in which I spoke was one in which there was no proposal for any mergers or bringing together of core functions of organisations. Therefore, I would wish that quotation that he gave to be fully understood in its context there, and not to suggest support for any particular option that’s being discussed just now. It’s no secret that we have concerns about some of the proposals that have been put, apparently, on the table, and also that we feel that there are very, very constructive ways forward, potentially, that could be taken by the heritage sector and the wider cultural sector, which I’d like to have an opportunity to mention again.
[182] I would perhaps just use this chance now—I may not get it again during this discussion—to stress some of the very important work that the museum is doing for the public in Wales. In St Fagans, we believe that we are developing one of the great new models of national museums of history, with resonance and significance well beyond Wales, beyond the United Kingdom—actually, globally—one built on co-production, participation, engagement by the public in the work of building a museum, literally and physically doing so. I have not seen anything like that anywhere else before. It’s a marriage of deep academic research—the very important work of our curators—but also of deep engagement with the wider public as well. There is something rather magical going on in all that. We’ve also got a new vision, which is very much emphasising ‘Inspiring People, Changing Lives’—a society-focused vision; one that is entirely putting the museum at the service of Wales. It has a significant impact on the Welsh economy: £93 million is the value of expenditure in Wales from the investment that’s made in the national museum by the Government, and £61 million of that is gross value added. It’s a very significant contribution to the Welsh economy, and actually typical, in some ways, of cultural investment altogether.
[183] We’ve worked, in St Fagans, with over 200 community organisations and street-level charities, like the Wallich and Barnardo’s. We serve over 200,000 schoolchildren a year, coming to our sites, and 600,000 or more children and adults coming in family groups. We are central to the Fusion poverty programme. We are actually the leading cultural organisation, by far, on this, and we’re also leading on the research on it. I think that indicates the depth of expertise that the museum has in working on challenging poverty as well.
[184] So, in every way, really, we are part of the informal learning infrastructure of Wales. We’re also part of the economic development of Wales, and we’re part of the research and community connection for Wales too: a very, very important cultural institution that plays a vital role in national development. We’re ambitious, we’re not tired, we’re not staid, we want change, we want transformation, and we are trying to drive that as best as we can to serve Wales.
[185] Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much. I’ve just got a quick question to start off. I’ve got in front of me the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, ‘Investing in the future to protect the past’. On the fifth page of 98, it says in the report:
[186] ‘We worked closely with a stakeholder group chaired by Baroness Randerson throughout this study, and the views expressed here also reflect those of the stakeholder group.’
[187] When I looked at the appendix, your name was part of the stakeholder group. This report obviously outlines four different options for moving forward with the sector, and you know those options. I’m just wondering if you can tell me, if you’re being quoted as being happy or being comfortable, or if your views are being expressed in this report, why you feel that you have concerns at this stage.
[188] Mr Anderson: I think, if one looks at the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, one will find some valuable analysis in it, and also some measured proposals for the ways forward. However, I think it’s first worth saying that it is not a report that was driven by the steering group. It was driven by Government and commissioned by Government—to the best of my knowledge, anyway.
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[189] It doesn’t aspire to provide a business case for change. It identifies that that would be needed before any decision should be made. It doesn’t provide an evidence base to support immediate implementation, in my view, of any of the recommendations. The process itself that we went through was unusual and, in my experience, unprecedented—and I’ve worked in the public sector for more than 30 years, including in other national museums. Essentially, the meetings, after the first meeting, had no agendas; there were no minutes from those meetings; and the only papers were papers produced by PricewaterhouseCoopers. They were, for the relevant meetings, produced invariably just 24 hours before the meeting—very little chance then to read them, let alone comment on them at the meetings. The work of concluding the PricewaterhouseCoopers report continued beyond the last meeting of that group, so the group had no opportunity to sit down with a completed report and present its own views.
[190] So, in my view, there is no Randerson report, there is a PricewaterhouseCoopers report. That’s not to say that everything in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report is bad or wrong, but I think the process by which we got there was very problematic, and I for one wrote twice in April after, again, having been given just 24 hours’ notice—when I was actually on leave—to respond to the report. I wrote twice, and on the second time I said: ‘First, may I re-emphasise my fundamental concern that if Cadw is the main focus for the report, the review has not yet been able to analyse in any depth the commercial operations of Amgueddfa Cymru, the national library and the royal commission, nor consider the implications of the options for our organisations as opposed to for Cadw—’
[191] Bethan Jenkins: So you contested that it reflected your view. You told them distinctly that this report did not reflect what your—
[192] Mr Anderson: I expressed a lot of very serious concerns about the report at the last time I saw it in draft. A number of my concerns were not addressed in the report.
[193] Bethan Jenkins: And was it other stakeholder groups as well? You say that you had written and said that you hadn’t had an input into the final report. Was that the reflection of other stakeholders also?
[194] Mr Anderson: Yes. I shouldn’t speak for other stakeholders, of course, directly. They must speak for themselves, and perhaps the committee would want to do that. I’m sure there was feedback to PricewaterhouseCoopers and Government that I didn’t see, and there’s no reason why I should have done as well. I am aware the National Library wrote with areas of concern as well to PricewaterhouseCoopers and Government.
[195] Bethan Jenkins: Suzy Davies wants to come in.
[196] Suzy Davies: Your concerns are very interesting, actually, but it still doesn’t get round the fact that the Welsh Government is trying to solve a problem of some sort. Can you tell me what you think that problem is, and why your existing arrangements with other partners, which you’ve spoken about quite a lot, haven’t solved that problem?
[197] Mr Anderson: I think that it would be fair to say that one very large problem is the funding and budget issues. In real terms, since 2010, our budget has been reduced by 33 per cent. We’ve sustained our seven sites and we have continued to provide, as best we can, our service to the public, but the sheer reality is that losing a third of your budget, in effect, in real terms, means that there’s huge stresses on the organisation. It’s one of the reasons why everything that’s been hitting the headlines over the last couple of years has been done, because we have to balance our budget. I, as accounting officer, am responsible for making sure that that’s done. And, however distasteful—and I do find, actually, laying off staff who are capable curators and who, in my view, are needed for the future of the organisation, among other staff—I have no choice in that situation but to do so, unless there are extra funding streams. Now, the argument could be that, well, creating Historic Wales is the answer to that. In fact, the Cabinet Secretary wrote to me in July after I’d written him a letter in June laying out what work the museum was doing, our very big ambitions for ourselves and for Wales around environments and other areas in the future, but also the very dire financial challenges that we’re facing, and laying out also some requests for help as well. He wrote back to me and the main proposal, really, for resolving this was, he said, that we may now implement option 4 of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report.
[198] Suzy Davies: Can I just come back in before we go into a territory that others may want to ask on? If your funding was so stretched, why weren’t you working with other partners to actually look at what commercial opportunities were available to you? Or was it a case that your funding was so stretched that there was just absolutely no way of carving out space to have that kind of thought process about how to take advantage of commercial opportunities?
[199] Mr Anderson: I think that it’s an element of both, really, because if your reserves have got very low, which ours have now—very, very low indeed—you just don’t have the investment money to put in. We did put in a bid for invest-to-save funding for us to develop 4D simulators and other new experiences at some of our sites. A few months ago that was approved, and we’ve got confirmation of that and we’ll want to go ahead and implement it. So, we do have, we think, innovative ideas for income-generating sources. Experience in a few other places in the UK where those have been applied suggest that there will be the income streams for us as well. But I think that there are two factors, really: the scale of money that’s needed for investment in order to do this, and secondly, how long it takes for that investment to come back as well. You do have to invest first, and you probably will be spending far more than you get in in the initial investments there before you can start to make the profits on it.
[200] One other thing that we did do, more than a year ago: we called together Cadw, the national library and the royal commission and said, ‘Let’s form ourselves into a commercial partnerships group. Let’s look at what we can do together’. From that, we’ve collectively done the children’s heritage passport in the summer, for two years now. The history place at the Eisteddfod has been done jointly by us, the Historic Wales webpages have been done jointly by that group, and we’re looking at a potential food strategy that we could all do collectively as well. I have to say, though, that everything that’s within our reach to do at the moment will not be sufficient to resolve the funding challenges, problems and difficulties that ourselves and—from what I hear—other organisations, like the national library, are facing now. It actually needs a rather more strategic approach to this. I think that, given that this proposal for creating Historic Wales and to merge most of the commercial operations of the museum and Cadw is what’s been taken out of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, I’m surprised that, first of all, an option that wasn’t—strictly speaking—there in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report has been selected; and secondly, that that report’s recommendation that very significant due diligence should be done on options hasn’t been done by the report itself, and it acknowledges that. That should be done before one jumps into saying, ‘Well, this particular thing is the solution’. I’ve got a number of comments I could make about the proposal.
[201] Suzy Davies: Okay. My final question is: do you know whether—. Well, you’ll know for yourself, but the other stakeholders as well. Do you have commercial directors or commercial executive members?
[202] Mr Anderson: Yes, we’ve got a head of enterprises in the museum. We have an enterprises board, with external people as well as trustees on it.
[203] Suzy Davies: Okay. Thank you.
[204] Mr Anderson: And we make nearly £5 million a year of income as well. Not profit, but income.
[205] Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy Miles.
[206] Jeremy Miles: Thank you. It’s very early days, in a sense, in this process, but you’ve obviously expressed significant concerns. In England and in Scotland, we’ve seen the establishment of Historic England and Historic Scotland, and I confess that my understanding of what those are and how they relate to the options being discussed at the moment are pretty embryonic. So, that’s just a caveat. But, do you have, at this point, any understanding of how the processes that were followed in England or Scotland impacted on equivalent institutions to yours in those countries, and what they did to tackle some of the concerns that you’re raising at this point?
[207] Mr Anderson: I think I can speak with a fair degree of confidence about the National Museum of Scotland and the national museums in London, for example, as well. To the very best of my knowledge, they have not been involved at all in any proposed merger with the equivalents—with Historic England, for example. If I’m frank, I think I could predict the reaction of my colleagues in London to such a proposal with great certainty.
[208] Jeremy Miles: So, they aren’t involved in those structures.
[209] Mr Anderson: No, not as far as I’m aware.
[210] Jeremy Miles: Okay.
[211] Bethan Jenkins: Dai.
[212] Neil Hamilton: Can I have—? I’m sorry—
[213] Bethan Jenkins: Is it on this, specifically?
[214] Neil Hamilton: Yes.
[215] Bethan Jenkins: Okay.
[216] Neil Hamilton: I’m just trying to understand what the nature of your fear is. Is it fundamentally that, at the moment, any commercial income that you generate is yours to spend on the priorities that you make, whereas if these different institutions are merged together then there’ll be a different decision-making body and you may not therefore get the full benefit of any income generated from the buildings and institutions that you currently control? Is that fundamentally what the issue is?
[217] Mr Anderson: I think that that would be one concern: to create what may be a new quango in Wales and therefore adding another complexity to decision making. I’ve no doubt that, if this were formed, there would be ways one could try to ensure that income streams come back. But I have a number of very much wider concerns as well on this. If I may, I’ll give you an example. The Welsh Government did actually outline to the steering group, in its first meeting on 22 September, a large range of functions that were within its definition of ‘commercial’. I’ll now give you an example of a project that we’ve done recently, and the implications for that project if the Government’s areas for commercial activity were followed through on what the implication would be. I think that many of you are probably aware that there was a wonderful discovery of a Welsh dinosaur near Penarth relatively recently. We were very closely involved right from the start. One of my colleagues in the natural sciences department was one of those people who did the research to try and identify if it was a new species and discovered that, yes, it was, and it was, arguably, even possibly, the earliest Jurassic dinosaur in the world, not just in Wales—so, very important research work, and let’s remember how important that curatorial work is, and that those curators, or people like them, are now at risk in our present finances. So, then, what’s come from that? There’s the Dinosaur Britain tv programme—ITV—dedicated to it. There was an exhibition in the main hall of the museum, there were 2 million Twitter feeds on the day that the announcement was made and the exhibition was opened, and we created new merchandise ourselves, based on the research, and the dinosaur sort of illustrating it—T-shirts and all those things that sell very well. In fact, we did everything that we could to make sure that the public had a great experience around this dinosaur. You can go and see it in its feathered glory in the galleries now. Almost every single one of those activities is within the scope and the definition that the Welsh Government gave at the steering group for commercial activity. That means that every single one of those activities, at the very least, would have had to have been negotiated with Historic Wales if it had those areas of responsibility. The complexity of that and, in some ways, the disempowerment of the museum, and the fact that we would be relying upon another body to approve or do some of these things is a serious concern. Normally, when you outsource or contract out services, you as an organisation have the power to put it out to tender and to choose the best supplier. What’s potentially being offered here—and I have to say that one of our great challenges is that there has been so little clarity, even though this idea has been in the semi-public domain since April to May this year, around the time of the election—there’s still so little clarity about what actually is going to be the mechanism for this. So, I have to work on only what we know has been said.
[218] Bethan Jenkins: What do you mean by ‘so little clarity’? Because, obviously, we’ve had the announcement of the steering group and the report in January next year, followed by a public consultation, I believe. So, you don’t think that that is clarity.
[219] Mr Anderson: Sorry, I beg your pardon; I was going back to April/May this year, when I understand that there was a commitment made by the Government, or by the Labour Party, to merge the two commercial functions—the two organisations. So, it’s five months or so ago. One might have hoped that, by the time we got to here, it would have been easier to get a clear statement about what Historic Wales was, what its roles and responsibilities are, which functions would be proposed to be covered, et cetera. So, we’re in a situation where, actually, we’ve got a single supplier, potentially, a Government quango, potentially, being unable to go out to market on some of these things, potentially, but we don’t know, because nobody has clarified this. But if we lose management control of key functions, then we are really being tied by the legs at that point. It becomes very hard to be effective as an entity, really, even though it may look as though only certain functions are being taken. In practice, actually, commercial activities—as I hope the dinosaur example showed—and non-commercial, arguably what could be called core, work are deeply integrated with each other and it requires savage surgery, really, to separate them out. Therefore, one has to ask: how effective would this be? How good would this be as a way of trying to resolve the financial problems that, perhaps, you were indicating there? And—
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[220] Bethan Jenkins: Can I bring Dai—
[221] Mr Anderson: Of course.
[222] Bethan Jenkins: —in now for a question?
[223] Dai Lloyd: Diolch. Byddaf i’n siarad yn Gymraeg. Gwnaethoch chi gyfeirio gynnau fach at adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers a’r pedwar opsiwn, ac rydym ni i gyd wedi gweld y pedwar opsiwn yna. Gwnaethoch chi hefyd gyfeirio at y ffaith bod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet Ken Skates wedi ysgrifennu atoch chi yn ôl ym mis Gorffennaf, rwy’n credu i chi ddweud. A allech chi gadarnhau beth oedd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi ei ddweud bryd hynny? A oedd o wedi datgan yn ffurfiol i chi fel yr amgueddfa ei fod o eisoes wedi dewis pa opsiwn o’r pedwar opsiwn yna yn adroddiad PricewaterhouseCoopers—bod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet eisoes wedi dewis pa opsiwn mae e’n ffafrio? A allech chi gadarnhau hynny?	Dai Lloyd: Thank you. I will be asking my question in Welsh. You made reference earlier to the PricewaterhouseCoopers report and the four options, and we’re all aware of those four options. You also referred to the fact that the Cabinet Secretary Ken Skates had written to you back in July; I think that’s what you said. Can you confirm what the Cabinet Secretary said at that point? Had he formally stated to you as the museum that he had already selected which of the four options in the PwC report he was to go with—that the Cabinet Secretary, had already selected which option he favoured? Can you confirm that?
[224] Mr Anderson: I’ve got it in my bag there, but, if verbal memory is okay, I’ll do that. I can certainly confirm the exact wording. He said that option 4 may provide a solution to the problems I mentioned—the issues I’ve mentioned about finance. I wrote a letter, I should say, to the Cabinet Secretary in June, and this was his reply, and it was largely about our financial challenges. He said that option 4 ‘may provide the answer to meeting those challenges and also some new opportunities for you’. So, we understood that to indicate that he was already strongly minded to do option 4.
[225] Dai Lloyd: Ym mhellach at hynny, a wnaeth o awgrymu yn y llythyr yna unrhyw ddadansoddiad am ar ba sail yr oedd o wedi dod i’r casgliad yna taw opsiwn 4 oedd yr unig ffordd ymlaen?	Dai Lloyd: Further to that, did he suggest in that letter any analysis of on what basis he’d come to that conclusion that option 4 was the only way forward?
[226] Mr Anderson: No, it was a relatively brief letter. There was no indication of, if you like, the reason why. He did acknowledge we’d been making significant efforts to increase our commercial income. He acknowledged that. He didn’t say why this particular route, rather than any others, was the one he would, apparently, prefer.
[227] Dai Lloyd: Ocê. Gan symud ymlaen at lythyr diweddarach sydd wedi cael ei ddanfon gan eich llywydd chi yn yr amgueddfa, dyddiedig 30 Medi, gwnaeth yr amgueddfa genedlaethol ddanfon y llythyr yma, yn dilyn y cyhoeddiad yma ynglŷn â threftadaeth Cymru, i’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Roeddech chi fel amgueddfa yn holi am ragor o wybodaeth ynglŷn â’r argymhellion. A ydych chi wedi cael ateb i’r llythyr yna eto?	Dai Lloyd: Okay. Moving on now to a later letter that was sent from your president at the museum, which was dated 30 September, the national museum sent this letter, after this announcement on Historic Wales, to the Cabinet Secretary. You as a museum were asking for further information about the recommendations. Have you received a response to that letter as of yet?
[228] Mr Anderson: We’ve received no response.
[229] Dai Lloyd: Ocê. Yn eich tyb chi, a oes yna ddigon o dystiolaeth i gefnogi uno gweithredoedd codi arian Cadw â’r amgueddfa genedlaethol?	Dai Lloyd: Okay. In your view, is there sufficient evidence to support merging the commercial activities of Cadw and the national museum?
[230] Mr Anderson: I entirely support the analysis of PricewaterhouseCoopers, which said that further studies would be needed, a great deal of due diligence. So, I think that that would apply to any of the options. I have, as you would gather, very, very particular concerns about option 4, or any form of partial merger as well.
[231] Dai Lloyd: Jest i roi llwyfan i chi egluro ychydig bach yn ehangach y pwynt yna, beth, yn eich tyb chi, fydd yn cael ei beryglu petai treftadaeth Cymru yn mynd yn ei flaen a gweithredoedd codi arian Cadw a’r amgueddfa yn cael eu cyfuno? Beth fyddai’r peryglon o sefydlu treftadaeth Cymru fel ydym ni’n deall ei fod o’n mynd i gael ei sefydlu?	Dai Lloyd: Just to give you a platform to explain that point in a little more detail, what, in your view, would be put at risk if Historic Wales were to proceed and the commercial activities of Cadw and the museum were to be merged? What would be the risks attached to establishing Historic Wales as we understand it is going to be established?
[232] Mr Anderson: As you would have seen from the Welsh dinosaur example that I gave, I think that there’s scarcely a function within the museum that would not be in some way changed and, potentially, reduced in its scope: curatorial work, the capacity of the organisation to make decisions on business cases, on exhibitions, the decisions about what would be free and what would not be free in services for schools and community organisations. There are such a lot of things, really: what we tour in the way of exhibitions to other countries. We’ve got MoUs with Japan, China, Argentina—
[233] Dai Lloyd: MoUs—sorry?
[234] Mr Anderson: Memoranda of understanding; I beg your pardon. We’ve consulted a lot with the heads of departments in different parts of the organisation and all of them have been coming back with areas of concern.
[235] I should actually mention one other thing too, which is the really serious concern we have about fundraising in the context of the uncertainty that’s been created by this announcement. We’re already aware that trusts and foundations and others in London, are discussing the implications of this for their future relationship with the museum. We are also aware that, in some cases, Welsh-based ones have come back to express significant concern as well. There is a kind of law in this, that the closer you get to Government the more the chilling effect in terms of getting money from elsewhere. One of our major concerns, therefore, is that we raised £7 million plus in recent years from donations. How much of that would we be able to get if we’re pulled into a Government-formed quango that drives our income, and presumably controls our expenditure as well?
[236] Bethan Jenkins: Can I bring in—? Sorry, have you finished? Can I bring in Dawn Bowden?
[237] Dawn Bowden: It’s dealing with a couple of things that have already been highlighted; I just wanted to pull a little bit more. One was around your income streams, and one was about the formation of Historic Wales and the fact that that was a manifesto commitment by the party that now forms the Government in Wales. Let me take that on first. You’ve already alluded to it: that you knew that that was in the Labour Party manifesto. The Labour Party has now formed the Government in Wales. So, it can therefore have been no surprise that the Government has moved on a manifesto commitment to set up something that it promised to do in its manifesto. So, what was your understanding then of what Historic Wales might be if it’s not what you think has been announced? What did you think was being suggested by the establishment of a Historic Wales body? Because, presumably, from what I’m hearing you say, you don’t seem to be opposed to the concept of that. You didn’t raise any objection to the concept of that. It’s maybe that you didn’t understand what it was. Is that right?
[238] Mr Anderson: I think it would be fair to say that, until somebody came forward with a concrete proposal, if you like, as Government, as opposed to an online statement, if you like, at the time of the election, it’s very, very hard to know how to respond. This comes back to the issue of clarity, really. I can’t answer the question of what Historic Wales would be. I know that it’s been mooted as an entity, and, in the steering group on 22 September, it was indicated that maybe there would be option 3 in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which is an executive agency, but maybe that’s just mooted rather than anything else. The only other things—there’s been more information, if you like, recently. At the time that the original announcement was made, I think none of us really had very much idea at all other than being concerned and waiting to see what was going to happen.
[239] There is one thing I do want to say about process on this as well, and I think this is really significant—the second of the three steering committee meetings that were chaired by Jenny Randerson, the late February 2016, PricewaterhouseCoopers produced a document with only 24 hours’ notice again called ‘interim feedback’, which was based on their consultation with the stakeholders as they’d been working with them. Now, it looked at the kind of emerging position of the stakeholders on each of the four options. Now, on option 4, its conclusion was ‘not generally supported’. In other words, the soundings they had been making was that this option was one that was not generally supported by the stakeholders. It also went on to give a number of other areas, which had been regarded as ones for concern. Institutional change is a long-term option, it said, and also that there may be lack of strategic fit between organisations as well, and so on and so on.
[240] Bethan Jenkins: This is a separate report now, is it?
[241] Mr Anderson: This was an interim document before the report, if you like.
[242] Bethan Jenkins: An interim document. It isn’t public.
[243] Mr Anderson: I’m not sure whether it’s public or not. Certainly—
[244] Bethan Jenkins: So, you don’t know how they’ve changed from the interim report to this, which—
[245] Mr Anderson: Well, this is, I suppose, in part, an answer to that question, really: the indication we thought we had in February was that option 4 was not going to be supported, really. At least, it wasn’t supported by the majority of people on the steering group there, judging by that statement by PricewaterhouseCoopers. So, it was an enormous surprise to us that, just a few weeks later, it’s popping up in some form or other in an online commitment there. We couldn’t see where that group’s view, in so much as it was represented by PricewaterhouseCoopers, had got to by the end of February—had moved into being a potential commitment post election.
[246] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Dawn, did you want to come back on that?
[247] Dawn Bowden: Just on that specific point, the conclusion in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report doesn’t say what you’ve just said, but there may be another report that does say that.
[248] Mr Anderson: There’s another document.
[249] Dawn Bowden: What we’re looking at is the final report of PricewaterhouseCoopers, and that’s not what that says in relation to option 4. But the other thing was picking up Suzy’s earlier point about income streams and income generation. By your own admission, your current ability to raise income is somewhat limited. I know that you have talked about setting up the commercial partnership group with the other organisations, and that might produce some benefits in the longer term. But, clearly, your current income streams are not enough to do all of the things that you want to do. As I understand it, this is the Government’s driving force behind its proposals: it is to improve the commercial viability of heritage in Wales. So, what would you see as the alternative, then, to the current set-up, which clearly isn’t going to be able to deliver the improved income-generation streams?
[250] Mr Anderson: I think all of us would say that the status quo is not an option. I would agree with you on that, if that’s what you’re saying. I think, however, that from there, there is a whole range of different options. I’ve worked with—. I’ve been instrumental in setting up a body with joint charitable status and also a company limited by guarantee as well, in Exhibition Road in London, between the museums, the universities, the cultural institutions, and so on. That organisation was democratically formed by the organisations that were members of it, and was initially funded by them. It was empowered, therefore, to do all sorts of things—getting money from lotteries to do joint projects with the public and to fund-raise in various ways. I’m not saying that that’s the answer here, but I think that there are a lot of things that are not even in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report that are built upon proven experience and proven success in the past that we should really be exploring properly. If I am being absolutely honest, I don’t feel that we had the chance to scrutinise properly, as the original steering group, the report that finally came out. Because of that, we have not really been able to have an adequate contribution to the decision making that’s gone on as well.
[251] Dawn Bowden: Is that not the purpose of the steering group that the Minister has set up?
[252] Mr Anderson: But it was the purpose of the previous steering group as well.
[253] Dawn Bowden: Yes, well, the one that’s now been announced on the back of the Minister’s statement. He’s now set up a steering group and the objectives of that are to peer-review a business development case; to agree the purpose, form and function of Historic Wales; and to deliver an implementation plan. So, isn’t that what the steering group is going to do— all the things that you are talking about?
[254] Mr Anderson: I think it is hard, because of different messages that have been given, to be quite sure on this. In some parts of the terms of reference for the new steering group, it does say, ‘Look at other options as well.’ However, if the statement has been made that Historic Wales will be created, and it’s being said to be a manifesto commitment by Government, and also that it will merge most of the commercial functions of the museum and Cadw, those look very like decisions, as opposed to an open reviewing of options.
[255] Dawn Bowden: Okay.
[256] Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Lee.
[257] Lee Waters: Can I just acknowledge the innovative work that you have been doing in the face of these dramatic funding cuts? Jeremy Miles and I visited St Fagans recently and were very impressed by what we saw going on there. I’m a little confused about the position. You’ve acknowledged that the cuts that have been ongoing are unsustainable: the status quo is not an option, you said. The Institute of Fiscal Studies projections of future public spending are pretty traumatic. Therefore, something needs to change. As you have noted, the Government has, as part of its programme for government, committed to doing something. You are an independent organisation. You are protected by a royal charter. Nobody can strong-arm you into going ahead with this if, ultimately, you reject it. But it seems as if a process has been set under way to try a range of options, and it seems to me that option 1—more joint working—is relatively uncontroversial. There’s no commitment really to go beyond that unless there is consensus or unless the Government decides otherwise. But even in that event, as a body protected by royal charter, you couldn’t be forced to do it. So, I’m just wondering, with your inspired letter-writing campaign and the anxiety I am sensing from your reaction, whether you are just jumping the gun a little.
11:45
[258] Mr Anderson: I don’t think it’s jumping the gun to respond when there’s a very clear statement about creating Historic Wales and merging commercial functions, and knowing, from the documents we’ve seen, that the definition of ‘commercial function’ was so very broad, sweeping and encompassing as well. I think, on the contrary, we would have been derelict in our duty not to ask for more information from Government at that stage, which is what we’ve done. Essentially, our board of trustees have written to say, ‘Please give us more information.’ We can’t come to a final judgment until we see that. We are, however, expressing concerns at the moment about the implications of what has been said.
[259] I suppose, really, that if we’re looking at option 1—and there could be a great deal of creative potential to define what option 1 could be—then, in that case, of course we’re very, very happy to do that. We would warmly welcome an open process of dialogue about this. I think we would really welcome the ambition of partnership, which the Government, very properly, are encouraging us as an organisation to engage in, which was one that we were also engaging with Government in. That would be enormously beneficial to all of us as we move forward, I think.
[260] Lee Waters: But you’ve said, in your president’s letter to the Minister, that you want to bring forward strong alternative proposals, which, it seems to me, the process allows you to do. Shouldn’t you engage in that process? I hear what you say about the previous process. It does sound a little hurried. But this is now a different process, responding to a policy commitment by an elected Government. Should you not go through that process, give it the benefit of the doubt, put forward—as you’re entitled to do—your strong alternative proposals, and if at that stage your anxieties remain, then kick up a fuss? To do so now does seem a little sensitive.
[261] Mr Anderson: [Laughter.] I think I’ve managed to get through life without being over-sensitive on some of these things, and have experienced a lot in that kind of way. I think there’s an appropriate point at which one has to say that the clear statement about creating Historic Wales and the indication at the steering committee meeting that this would be an executive agency—it was only an indication, it wasn’t a final commitment there—to create Historic Wales, in whatever form, to take a lot of our commercial activities is something where, actually, we do have to say, ‘We want the alternatives to be looked at and we are really concerned about that one, and if you drive us into a corner on that, then, in principle, we’d say, subject to getting further information, that we can’t agree it.’
[262] Lee Waters: As is your right.
[263] Mr Anderson: As is our right. But, we don’t want to be in that corner. Where we want to be is working in partnership in all this. We’re absolutely up for it. Between People’s Collection Wales and the commercial partnerships group we’ve formed, the infrastructure, in some ways, for us to work more—
[264] Lee Waters: In which case, go through the process, then.
[265] Mr Anderson: We’re very positive about going through the process. I think that it’s fair for us to express very great concern about one proposal the Government says is an election manifesto commitment.
[266] Lee Waters: It doesn’t ‘say’ it is; it is a matter of fact. I’m not sure why you’re questioning that. It is. It’s a matter of record.
[267] Mr Anderson: Okay, it is a manifesto—
[268] Lee Waters: It’s a programme for government commitment.
[269] Mr Anderson: Yes, so if that’s the case—
[270] Lee Waters: How that’s implemented is a matter for the group to go through and work with the Government on. You’re part of that. I’m putting to you: would it not be more appropriate to go through that process properly, engage with it and, if, at that stage, you want to exercise your veto, unless they change the law, you’re entitled to do that?
[271] Mr Anderson: I think what we’re asking for is clarification on the statement that’s been made about the manifesto commitment. I think we are entitled to ask for that clarification. I think the board is entitled to do so. I’ve started everything I’ve said today by saying we’re really keen on partnership. We’re really positive about the potential for that. We would be delighted to be exploring all these different options, together with others as well—100 per cent signed up to it, 110 per cent signed up to it.
[272] Lee Waters: Excellent.
[273] Mr Anderson: But, I think our track record also is that we’ve been doing it, too.
[274] There is something, actually, I do really welcome that the Government has said. The Cabinet Secretary said, I think in the last week or so, that those jobs that are there at the moment aren’t just guaranteed—this is in reference to Historic Wales and those changes—but that these are opportunities for many more people to enter the sector across the age range from all demographics. We really welcome that statement that those jobs that are there at the moment—and I’m hoping that includes our own staff in the museum—aren’t just guaranteed, because one of the great concerns that there is at the moment, on our staff’s part, and our concern as management about the implications for us there, is that we really need to find ways to preserve the jobs. It’s not something we can wait two or three years to get to.
[275] Lee Waters: Th